[7:32:58 PM] Navarr Barnier says: thought you'd be interested to know that Silver has joined the Pokémon Net Consortium (Pokémon: Den of Ages)
[7:33:16 PM] Tenka Digi says: Ok, I'll pass that on as well.
[7:33:32 PM] Navarr Barnier says: cool. We look forward to your response.
[8:17:30 PM] Tenka Digi says: [6:10:37 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: If we share it with everyone in that group, and any single one of them gets hacked, then we can be as well. I'm not sure it's a very good idea.
[8:18:18 PM] Navarr Barnier says: the benefits of an open protocol deny that possibility. all features would need to be checked server side, depending on the client for nothing.
[8:18:29 PM] Navarr Barnier says: hacking would be a no-go
[8:18:39 PM] Tenka Digi transcribes the message.
[8:18:58 PM] Navarr Barnier says: if he's on here, why not pull him into a chat room?
[8:19:34 PM] *** Tenka Digi added Jesse Gill (Pandepic) to this chat
***
[8:19:46 PM] Navarr Barnier says: Good Evening.
[8:19:53 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: good morning
[8:20:09 PM] Navarr Barnier says: so, what are your thoughts?
[8:20:22 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I think, give me some good reasons why we should do it?
[8:20:28 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: there are obvious security risks in doing it
[8:21:35 PM] Navarr Barnier says: tradeable features. One member of the group adds a feature to the protocol, it gets its own extension Identification, in which clients could easily implement it, and servers would be able to as well. It allows extensions that can be passed around, and will allow (for example, one group makes a client that runs on the Wii) that client to also connect to Server's of the other groups
[8:21:44 PM] Navarr Barnier says: kind of like Netbattle (except they don't open their protocol)
[8:22:07 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: but why would we want your clients putting extra strain on our servers?
[8:22:16 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it'll cost us more money
[8:22:26 PM] Navarr Barnier says: and gain you more users.
[8:22:35 PM] Navarr Barnier says: as well as allow you easy access to features we create
[8:22:40 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: well
[8:22:44 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if they are connecting via your client
[8:22:58 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: they aren't guaranteed to be visiting our website and contributing to the income needed to pay the server bills
[8:23:08 PM] Navarr Barnier says: but that goes the same for us as well
[8:24:01 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: true
[8:24:03 PM] Navarr Barnier says: infact, giving them the option to choose multiple servers from your client, would possibly alleviate stress on your own server while they're on ours, and still contributing to your group
[8:24:17 PM] Navarr Barnier says: it works both ways
[8:24:36 PM] Tenka Digi says: What's the point of having multiple clients for the same game in that case?
[8:24:46 PM] Navarr Barnier says: clients that work on other operating systems.
[8:24:50 PM] Tenka Digi says: Ah
[8:24:56 PM] Navarr Barnier says: for example, PoKéQuesT DS would be able to connect to POL
[8:24:59 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: our client works on all operating systems
[8:25:11 PM] Tenka Digi says: (We don't have a DS or Wii client though)
[8:25:41 PM] Navarr Barnier says: extensions into homebrew for PS3, Wii, PSP, DS, etc, would allow it to work in conjunction with yours as long as they maintain the same protocol
[8:26:07 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I don't see much need for that though
[8:26:59 PM] Navarr Barnier says: it also promotes more unity in the community, with the groups working together, you're less likely to get hacking attempts from "rival projects"
[8:28:06 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if we open our source to anyone else then we are more likely to be exploited
[8:28:10 PM] Navarr Barnier says: not your source
[8:28:26 PM] Navarr Barnier says: we would all be working in conjunction to create a standard protocol of communication
[8:28:34 PM] Navarr Barnier says: not the source code.
[8:28:53 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if the game engines aren't all the same then sharing servers wouldn't work anyway
[8:29:08 PM] Navarr Barnier says: why would the engines have to be the same?
[8:29:09 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: our server is written based on our custom game engine
[8:29:43 PM] Navarr Barnier says: we're only standardizing a client/server communication protocol. That allows the servers using it complete customization, and the ability to run their engines however they wish
[8:29:54 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I don't see how that can work well
[8:30:08 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it can work at all but a server written to the engine is better imo
[8:30:31 PM] Tenka Digi says: It is rather confusing... Wouldn't different content conflict then?
[8:30:37 PM] Navarr Barnier says: no, not at all
[8:30:38 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yes content would conflict
[8:30:45 PM] Navarr Barnier says: the protocol would be diverse enough to allow for different content
[8:30:54 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it's easy to say that
[8:30:57 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: not easy to actually do it
[8:31:02 PM] Navarr Barnier says: turning the client into more of a monitor
[8:31:12 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: the client can't just be a monitor
[8:31:14 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it needs to be a client
[8:31:23 PM] Tenka Digi says: Then how would it verify the accuracy of the content?
[8:31:45 PM] Navarr Barnier says: it wouldn't *need* to verify the accuracy of the contents, thats the server's job
[8:31:48 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if you're saying what I think you're saying then I think it's a bad idea
[8:32:03 PM] Navarr Barnier says: it puts the server in charge, allowing for less hacking
[8:32:08 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: the server has enough to process just as a server let alone dumping more onto it
[8:32:28 PM] Navarr Barnier says: but if your client is what is checking any, or sending out how much damage to deal
[8:32:30 PM] Navarr Barnier says: then its easily hacked
[8:32:36 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: our client is most certainly not
[8:32:41 PM] Navarr Barnier says: as I demonstrated on the previous version of POL
[8:32:49 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: you exploited a previous version?
[8:32:59 PM] Tenka Digi says: Yes, that's old news.
[8:33:03 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I see
[8:33:26 PM] Navarr Barnier says: the previous version had no security checks whatsoever.
[8:33:31 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yes I know
[8:33:34 PM] Tenka Digi says: Syp3r quality coding.
[8:33:38 PM] Navarr Barnier says: everything was handled by the cients.
[8:33:42 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I was supposed to be making it secure but Syp3r rejected my code
[8:33:51 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I spent months on it aswell
[8:33:59 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: that's why I hate him so much
[8:34:05 PM] Navarr Barnier says: so, what is the exact probem with our idea?
[8:34:09 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: firstly
[8:34:25 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: you will have to put most of what the client does as a client, serverside
[8:34:32 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: which adds unecessary strain
[8:34:38 PM] Navarr Barnier says: such as, what
[8:34:43 PM] Navarr Barnier says: what would be moved server-side?
[8:34:48 PM] Navarr Barnier says: that you would do client-side?
[8:34:56 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: everything would have to be if you want it to be completely shareable
[8:35:09 PM] Navarr Barnier says: like, specific examples
[8:35:12 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: animation?
[8:35:24 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: resources
[8:35:46 PM] Navarr Barnier says: why would those need to be moved server-side?
[8:35:57 PM] Tenka Digi says: (once again returning to the content issue)
[8:36:02 PM] Navarr Barnier says: you mean that kind of content
[8:36:11 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: ok here is why it wont work otherwise
[8:36:23 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: our engine has a certain system for animation, mapping etc.
[8:36:34 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: we have based our entire server system on how our own game works
[8:36:40 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if you send a move request to our server
[8:36:45 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it will treat it the same way it needs to for our engine
[8:36:57 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: which wont necessarily work for yours
[8:37:18 PM] Navarr Barnier says: our engine would see the move request and interpret it in its own way, sending the same type of protocol structured response to the client
[8:37:44 PM] Tenka Digi says: So the server would need to identify client type, no?
[8:37:52 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yes but our server sends the response in a certain way to stop exploitation
[8:38:07 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it's how i've designed alot of things in my engine
[8:38:20 PM] Navarr Barnier says: working together to make a single protocol, there wouldn't be different responses
[8:38:39 PM] Navarr Barnier says: it would be made in such a way that the communication layer would always be the same between servers
[8:38:41 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: and then we would lose the extra security from what we're already doing
[8:38:53 PM] Navarr Barnier says: not unless you also build it into this protocol
[8:39:02 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: which means opening our source
[8:39:10 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: which is not going to happen
[8:39:17 PM] Navarr Barnier says: is it an encryption layer?
[8:39:26 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: giving you any details is also not going to happen
[8:39:37 PM] Navarr Barnier says: look, i can't explain if you're going to remain secretive
[8:39:47 PM] Navarr Barnier says: i'm not asking specifics
[8:39:50 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: well I have to be secretive
[8:39:56 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: considering what happened to the previous POL
[8:40:13 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I have invested alot of time in this new one and I am making sure I haven't wasted it
[8:40:31 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: and the rest of the staff have also invested alot of time
[8:40:40 PM] Navarr Barnier says: the same with all the other groups
[8:40:44 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yes
[8:41:12 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I think the idea of whta you're saying is a very good one but I don't think it's needed for POL
[8:41:16 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: what*
[8:41:28 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: it works better for things like Limewire etc.
[8:42:01 PM] Navarr Barnier says: okay then.
[8:42:03 PM] Navarr Barnier says: happy programming.
[8:42:13 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: sorry if I came off as rude or anything
[8:42:16 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I am nto dismissing your idea
[8:42:25 PM] Navarr Barnier says: i know.
[8:42:29 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I just think it's a fairly big step and there is just not enough need for it right now
[8:42:52 PM] Navarr Barnier says: true. and there probably isn't, but its a lot harder to change to something later, if you haven't planned for it from the start
[8:42:58 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yes
[8:43:13 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: but our engine is flexible so it wont be hard for us to adapt to it later if we choose
[8:43:25 PM] Navarr Barnier says: well, alright then.
[8:43:33 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I don't see that we will need to though, pokemon is a PC targetted mmorpg
[8:43:38 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: and we have PC covered
[8:43:50 PM] Navarr Barnier says: there was a lot of interest in the DS when it was announced by PKQST
[8:44:01 PM] Navarr Barnier says: infact, its been mentioned in PDoA too and received a large response
[8:44:02 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yes I think a DS pokemon mmo is a good idea
[8:44:21 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: but POL has no need to be on the DS
[8:44:35 PM] Navarr Barnier says: it's not really *need* we're trying to appeal to
[8:44:42 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: yeah I understand
[8:44:52 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: but we're trying to appeal only to PC as far as I know
[8:45:02 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if Jeff wants us to port to DS he will tell me
[8:46:03 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: or if Tenka wants us to port it he can tell me aswell
[8:46:51 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: homebrewing is a bit iffy at the moment though I think
[8:47:07 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: if nintendo is doing the same thing as Sony and making firmware updates to prevent it
[8:47:18 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I am not sure if they are or not but I assume they would
[8:47:18 PM] Navarr Barnier says: not for the DS
[8:47:21 PM] Navarr Barnier says: for the wii, supposedly
[8:47:24 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: oh
[8:47:29 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: I wonder why they haven't on DS
[8:47:37 PM] Navarr Barnier says: its practically impossible to
[8:47:41 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: ah lol
[8:47:54 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: so they made it unsecure in the first place?
[8:48:21 PM] Navarr Barnier says: not so much insecure, but open. It wasn't region locked, it wasn't heavily encrypted.
[8:48:28 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: oh
[8:48:33 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: that's weird and kinda funny
[8:48:54 PM] Navarr Barnier says: for the wii though, they added a very heavy layer of encryption
[8:49:06 PM] Navarr Barnier says: that the homebrew scene still can't duplicate yet
[8:49:10 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: meh someone will break it
[8:49:14 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: they always do
[8:49:43 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: they said the blue ray encryption couldn't be broken, and a 14 year old Australian kid did it in 30 minutes
[8:49:47 PM] Navarr Barnier says: we haven't really broken it, but sort of "emulated" it in a way. but not in such a way its flawless, there has been an update thats ready to break all of our work (except the twilight hack)
[8:50:26 PM] Navarr Barnier says: well, for the wii, its a certain type of checksum thats applied all over the place, and it checks all these different checksums and if anything is out of order it won't run it
[8:50:46 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: oh
[8:51:07 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: that is a pretty secure idea actually
[8:51:19 PM] Navarr Barnier says: its pretty messed up, i think it has like checksums that are in sections that are also checksummed and double checked
[8:51:39 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: hahahaha
[8:51:49 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: sounds like lots of fun to try and break ><
[8:51:57 PM] Navarr Barnier says: nobody's truly done it yet
[8:52:05 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: i'd say someone will eventually
[8:52:10 PM] Navarr Barnier says: *nods*
[8:53:53 PM] Navarr Barnier says: brb
[8:53:56 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: k
[9:02:30 PM] Navarr Barnier says: back
[9:02:37 PM] Jesse Gill (Pandepic) says: welcome back
[9:02:44 PM] Tenka Digi says: w/b
[9:02:55 PM] Navarr Barnier says: ty