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* Das Thema für #android ist: Planet Android seems pretty cool: http://planetandroid.com/
* Das Thema für #android wurde gesetzt durch morrildl um Sun Mar 9 01:54:04 2008
<jasta> we nearly broke records for snowfall in Western WA this year.
<jasta> and we've had a great past 4 years.
<chaosvoyager> So THAT'S where all the snow is going -_-
<jasta> our record was in 1996, there was so much snow at Mt. Baker that they had to open late one day to dig the chairlifts out.
<Bonkers> wow, that's awesome
<davidw> *wow*
<jasta> it was like riding the rope tow sitting on the chair lift.
<davidw> I hate those f(&(&(*& rope tow things
<davidw> my wife got a good laugh at my expense.... she was trying to teach me to ski
<Bonkers> don't they only exist on the tiny hills?
<davidw> and I fell over on the rope tow... but I didn't let go... I paid my money, dammit, and I wanted to go up the hill
<Bonkers> now that's using your head
<dcordes> can somebody tell me when there will be SD driver in msm linux?
* trivex` (n=trivex@CPE00112f8785ab-CM000f9f50281e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) hat #android betreten
<jasta> Bonkers: yes, they're only on the learner hills.
<jasta> And they're literally hills, like 50 feet at best usually :)
<dcordes> swetland, ping
* illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) hat #android betreten
<davidw> this one was a bit bigger than that... it was sort of a half rate ski area... but it certainly wasn't a big mountain either
<jasta> davidw: This year, we had a 6 day streak of over a foot per day of new snow at one of our popular mountains.
<jasta> They had to close down for 3 days because they had several avalanches cover the pass roadway, the largest of which created a wall in the street over 30 feet high
<jasta> so global warming? i don't know. ;)
<chaosvoyager> Dude, I'm trying to give you reasonable justification for ditching work :)
<jasta> i don't need one, manager already approved :)
<jasta> and i'm going to Tahoe for 4 days at the end of Mar
<jasta> and that's already approved :)
<jasta> My buddy worked out a deal with his boss to ditch work on as little as 2 hours notice to go boarding, so long as there are no meetings or anything.
<chaosvoyager> Damn you.
* ersi (n=ersi@unaffiliated/ersi) hat #android betreten
* proq wonders how wireless support for android + zaurus is coming along
<proq> is there a way to get a terminal on android yet?
* trivex hat die Verbindung getrennt (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
<chaosvoyager> No idea.
<chaosvoyager> (* another idea sparks and sets his head on fire *)
<chaosvoyager> ow.
* jota- hat die Verbindung getrennt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<davidw> proq, in what way?
<proq> davidw: huh?
<davidw> what do you want to do?
<proq> I have trouble using computers anymore unless I have a CLI
<davidw> well... you could put something together with Hecl
<davidw> that lets you access whatever android can do
<davidw> more or less
* ersi hat die Verbindung getrennt (Remote closed the connection)
* ersi (n=ersi@81-237-203-165-no38.tbcn.telia.com) hat #android betreten
* blueriver (n=qtameic@cacher3.ericsson.net) hat #android betreten
* darkbalder (n=dochoa@190.154.246.23) hat #android betreten
<jasta> proq: adb shell
* jota- (n=jota@190.6.0.180) hat #android betreten
<jasta> but thats just for development
<jasta> you certainly wouldn't want to use such a thing with a real phone.
* dcordes wonders what a _real_ phone is
<proq> oh, cool
<proq> jasta: my zaurus doesn't even have X running on it, not enough room for both X and emacs 22 :)
<donomo> your choices were a windowing environement, or an operating system :)
<jasta> dcordes: in this case, a device which is commonly used to make and receive wireless telephone calls, instead of a computer running an emulator which is not capable of making such calls.
* bas0 hat die Verbindung getrennt ("Leaving")
<proq> heh. wait until skype can run on it :)
* dfas (n=none@10.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net) hat #android betreten
<jasta> i could be more specific if you want me to, but i suspect that you knew what i meant by "real phone".
<dcordes> jasta, ok and I suspect you to know what I try to imply by the question
<jasta> No, I don't. On a small form factor wireless handset, it would not be convenient to use a terminal.
<jasta> What did you mean to the contrary?
<davidw> ooooh... hrm.... light goes on....
<dcordes> that I want to at least have the opportunity to use my device to the fullest possible extent
* TimRiker hat die Verbindung getrennt ("Well, at least my terminal is not so controlling now")
* cybereagle (n=cybereag@unaffiliated/cybereagle) hat #android betreten
* sayao (i=mynameis@189.7.12.104) hat #android betreten
<jasta> dcordes: A shell on Android would very certainly not do that.
<proq> jasta: erm. I certainly *do* want to use a terminal on my small devices, and already do for that matter
<proq> as I mentioned a few minutes ago
<dcordes> proq, ack
<jasta> proq: Then prepare for Android to disappoint you.
* dcordes is also zaurus user and knows the big pros of CLI on small devices.
<jasta> The shell is likely to be extremely limited, and it is unlikely that any major distribution effort will come under way to improve it.
<proq> jasta: if it has ssh, the only limitations will be resolution and small keyboard size
* proq notes palm phones running ssh is pretty popular
* ersi_ (n=ersi@81-237-203-165-no38.tbcn.telia.com) hat #android betreten
<dcordes> it's feeling odd to discuss the point of CLI usage in a linux channel to me
<proq> indeed
<dcordes> jasta, are you involved in msm kernel development?
<jasta> does this seem like a linux channel to you?
<proq> android is a linux distro
<jasta> Is it?
<jasta> ...are you aure? :)
<jasta> sure*
<proq> yes, and it will remain so until it stops using the linux kernel
<jasta> What makes you so confident that it is appropriate to define Android so narrowly?
<dcordes> haha what?
<jasta> Allow me to assist you.
<proq> "linux distro" is very broad actually
<dcordes> pleease
<proq> would you prefer embedded linux distro?
<jasta> Android is a software stack, including not an insignificant volume of specialized software contributing toward an application framework and runtime environment.
<dcordes> ==android is linux with an own/new backend?
<jasta> To define it narrowly as a Linux distro would be a much less fitting description. For example, I could define it as a Dalvik runtime environment. But it is not simply that.
<jasta> dcordes: Is? It *is* that?
<dcordes> come on. you have the dalvik vms on top of the linux kernel
<dcordes> I don't get what sort of black magic you are talking about
<jasta> There is no "magic" here. I am talking about an application framework, which you are ignoring.
<jasta> I don't know why, but you are.
<dcordes> what's so specialized instead of the userland?
<jasta> dcordes: What's so significant about the kernel that is used? Is the most significant, defining piece of Android the Linux kernel?
<jasta> Is that what makes it unique and interesting?
<jasta> Is that it distributes the Linux kernel and some software built against Linux what defines it best? Does that help you understand how it differs from, say, OpenWRT?
<dcordes> to get back to the gist: we were talking about the requirement of a shell in android
* ersi hat die Verbindung getrennt (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<davidw> so anyway
<davidw> dcordes, I don't think there's a shell widget right now
<jasta> dcordes: Yes, and you won't find a robust one with Android, since the software stack doesn't include it.
<davidw> maybe you can write one:-)
<davidw> I think it ought to be possible
<jasta> The software stack includes a shell, but very limited command-line utility. There is no reason to suspect it will ever include those tools.
<dcordes> I can't and I don't have the interest in making one
<davidw> I mean, people have made ssh clients for java me....
<jasta> davidw: Writing a shell would be harmful to your health :)
<chaosvoyager> 0_o
<jasta> Besides, you're talking about a terminal, not a shell.
<davidw> I wouldn't mind have something a littel bit nicer for interactive hecl usage
<davidw> well, for ssh he wants a terminal, sure
<proq> I wouldn't bother reinventing the wheel. rather, just port one
<davidw> he can use Hecl as a shell:-)
<proq> I will probably end up just tweaking some makefiles
<chaosvoyager> proq: Do you want CLI access because it allows typed commands, or because it provides access to Linux utils?
<jasta> proq: My greatest complaint with the way you are approaching this topic is that you believe Android will or does contain a significant set of command line tools. It does not, and likely will not. It is unlikely to ever, since most of Android's application framework is at a layer that would not be easily compatible with command-line interaction.
<jasta> proq: Which is why your assertions that it is simply a distro are so flawed.
<dcordes> jasonchen, huh? who set there will be a set of command line tools in android. maybe he just want to be able to get under the hood
<jasta> Android's application framework is its significant piece, and that piece is very custom, and mostly written in Java. The construction of command-line utilities to interact with it would be a very significant endeavour.
<dcordes> even if there is nothing in it haha
<jasta> dcordes: Why would you want to do that?
<dcordes> hey people aren't we talking about the world's first entirely free and open mobile phone platform??
<jasta> proq suggested that he wanted to access the full "power" of his device, and that a command line would do that. I am telling you that with Android, it would not.
<jasta> dcordes: No, because there have already been quite a few entirely free and open mobile phone platforms.
<jasta> We are talking about Android, one of them, and far from the first.
<dcordes> jasta, how's that? what if I want to attach additional hardware to my usb host and need to install and load an additional module?
<dcordes> how do I want to do this w/o a terminal?
<jasta> dcordes: Well, you'd be SOL because Android's kernel is not modular.
<dcordes> jasta, I don't care.
<jasta> How would a terminal help you then?
<dcordes> I will configure it modular
<chaosvoyager> dcordes: hikerproject.org might be closer to what you're looking for.
<jasta> A terminal is not going to install a kernel for you.
<proq> jasta: sorry, but the ignorance here is deafening, and I have better things to do than explain linux history.
* proq vanishes
<dcordes> given that android is the world's first free and open phone platform and rooted on free and open source software, my humble self will configure compile and install the kernel that it runs on!°
<jasta> dcordes: Regardless, you're setting yourself up for a great deal of disappointment. It is still unclear if Android will even be all that hackable. The phone manufacturers have every ability to very thoroughly lock it down.
<jasta> The manufacturer could make it impossibly difficult for you to manipulate the system in any way not supported by the Android framework, and I think there's a good chance that they will. As they have always done.
<jasta> And please quit referring to it as the first. That is simply not true.
<dcordes> jasta, isn't it all about the software, not about the machines?
<jasta> what, specifically, is all about the software?
<dcordes> I remember your boss saying exactly this in the videos that appeared among with the android website
<dcordes> jasta, android.
<dcordes> it's not about the gphone
<dcordes> there will be no gphone
<jasta> Android is a software stack, so yes.
<dcordes> all lies?
* ChanServ gibt Op-Status an jasonchen
<jasta> dcordes: You do realize that someone will of course need to make a phone, right?
<dcordes> ah ok so why are you talking about some manufacturers preventing me from compilling my own kernel?
<jasta> HTC, for example, will make a phone, put Android on it, and they may just as well lock it all down so that you could not install your own kernel, access a shell, etc.
<jasta> Nothing stops them.
<dcordes> jasta, I'm pretty aware.
<jasta> They can make it impossibly difficult for you to do anything. And they might, even.
<chaosvoyager> dcordes: and the OpenMoko project might also be a closer fit to your interests.
<jasta> I think what you should be most excited about is what Android is doing to *linux*, not for itself or for the mobile industry.
<chaosvoyager> bastards sold out becore I could get one too ;_;
<jasta> Android is promoting a clear focus on stable, robust drivers for Linux for mobile technology. That will ultimately yield more hackable devices than Android itself.
<dcordes> jasta, excitement?
<dcordes> what excitement?
<davidw> I saw an openmoko phone at the android meeting in Munich
<davidw> took forever to boot
<davidw> it was neat though
<benley> I played with an openmoko phone last week
<benley> it was pretty
<benley> but the UI was _ass_
<davidw> heeh
<jasta> dcordes: You seemed to be excited by Android. My apologies.
* matt_c (n=mcroydon@63.250.241.10) hat #android betreten
* davidw thinks Android is something to be excited about.... you get a ton of software for free under a super liberal license
<chaosvoyager> If the whole point of Android is to get vendors to provide open drivers, then I will consider it a win regardless of whatever else happens.
<davidw> of course, it may amount to nothing, but it seems like a good thing to me
<jasta> benley: Google did a very smart thing forming the OHA. That was smart :)
<dcordes> jasta, I am not excited about android, rather about you as a person not understanding the terms free and open in free and open source software.
<jasta> err remove that second sentence :)
<davidw> and Google has a lot more money and clout than openmoko
<jasta> dcordes: You must be right. What do I know about free and open source software?
<davidw> dcordes, what's he not getting?
<dcordes> jasta, he is explaining how nice and beautiful htc is going to disable access to essential functionallities
<davidw> dcordes, well, they might
<romainguy> dcordes: What essential functionalities?
<jasta> davidw: Yeah, but Google's prestige was just a tool to form and sustain the OHA.
<jasonchen> so, how about that local sports team?
<davidw> it's open source, so the handset people or operators might hack it so that it's crippled
<dcordes> I cinsearly doubt how jasta is going to prevent me from running my own kernel on a machine that is based on linux w/o violating GPL
<jasta> Do you doubt how HTC, Samsung, Motorola, and LG might?
<dcordes> romainguy, in the given example, running a custom kernel.
<davidw> jasonchen, mmmm this is usually better: "do you guys think emacs or vim is better for _______ ?"
<jasta> Or Sprint, T-Mobile, Vodaphone?
<dcordes> jasta, yes.
<dcordes> yes
<romainguy> dcordes: I don't see how it is essential on a phone
<jasta> dcordes: You don't see how a hardware manufacturer could make it very hard for you to upload your own kernel? How do you not see that?
<davidw> dcordes, TIvo
<jasonchen> davidw: that's always a good one. :-)
<davidw> jasonchen, the theory being sort of like using dynamite to extinguish oil well fires...
<dcordes> romainguy, on the world's first free and open software platform for mobile phone devices based on a gpl kernel I think it is essential to do so
<sayao> is there a list of submitted android apps, so i don't code a duplicate one?
* Stephmw hat die Verbindung getrennt (Remote closed the connection)
* Stephmw (n=steph@tangency.co.uk) hat #android betreten
<proq> jasta: you should read about how hackers got linux running on xbox and xbox360
<chaosvoyager> A rebel alliance... androids... phones named after letters... This is all starting to sound very familiar...
<jasta> sayao: Not really, but the community is certainly very lively. Would be easy to kind of explore around or ask questions to find out.
<jasta> proq: I know how, in fact I have Linux running on an XBox in my house.
<sayao> jasta, if i code a msn client, could it be legally used (since it's a microsoft trademark)?
<jasta> sayao: That depends on how you have discovered the protocol, and on your and your user's country of residence :)
<davidw> sayao, maybe a multi-protocol chat thing? you could write an whatever protocol over gtalk thing and then distribute messages/connections on a server
<jasta> sayao: In general, yes, you could do that legally.
<sayao> i know the msn protocol by reverse engineering it :)
<sayao> mostly using wireshark hehe
<jasta> well then check your country's legal code :)
<chaosvoyager> sayao: Um, Miranda is an open source IM client that supports MSN, as well as, er, almost everything else.
<jasta> In the US, reverse engineering is still generally upheld as legal, so long as you did it with wire sniffing.
<dcordes> jasta, may I ask what's your function in android?
<proq> sayao: you don't need to use the MSN trademark to use the msn chat protocol
<jasta> dcordes: I don't know if it's appropriate for me to define myself. Perhaps someone else could do it.
<dcordes> jasta, you are an extremely philosophical person
<chaosvoyager> Well, I don't know about jasta, but my finction in Android is the ass. Most... important... part.
<dcordes> big in your words
<chaosvoyager> Come to think of it, I'm shiny and metal too...
* dfas` (n=none@10.201.216.81.static.s-o.siw.siwnet.net) hat #android betreten
<chaosvoyager> (* looks to see where he's heard "world's first free and open" before *)
* BiT-QuaKe (i=d@55.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) hat #android verlassen
<chaosvoyager> Hmm, OpenMoko: The World\rquote s First Integrated Open Source Mobile Communications Platform...(* inhale *). You'd think they could shorten it a bit.
<benley> I'm sure Sun has called things "world's first free and open" a few hundred times
<dcordes> chaosvoyager, well how about "A commitment to openness..."
<dcordes> this accordingly to android is required to create a better mobile phone
<dcordes> jasta, is propagating the opposite
<chaosvoyager> dcordes: actually, that's much better.
<dcordes> what he descriped is from my point of view a missuse of the word oppenness
<romainguy> \o/
<romainguy> my MacPro has just shipped
<benley> woot
<benley> I like mine. I'd like it better if it was smaller, though.
<jasonchen> romainguy: nice. how did you have it configured?
<chaosvoyager> ... and there was much rejoicing.
<romainguy> jasonchen: 8-cores, 2 GB of RAM (+ 6 GB I bought elsewhere), 1 TB of HDD
<romainguy> jasonchen: and the Nvidia 8800 GT
<dcordes> I don't see any point in this. Enjoy your not-so-fucking-open-path of victory
<jasonchen> romainguy: niiice. i've been contemplating getting one for my photography
<davidw> jasonchen, so... is recording definitely not working ? there's a -mic option for the emulator...