democritus: howdy
(6:03:09 PM) Nottestuser: I'm in agreement as I think I already said.
(6:03:13 PM) democritus: might come in handy one day
(6:03:28 PM) Nottestuser: So which is it going to be? Shut it all down or pick some goals and do it?
(6:03:29 PM) democritus: you are in agreement with what? 4300/night prostitutes?
(6:03:48 PM) Nottestuser: $4300 is too much. It'd be cheaper to get a wife.
(6:03:49 PM) democritus: matt not sure honestly-
(6:03:57 PM) democritus: all depends on what we can come up wiht
(6:04:08 PM) Nottestuser: Now if you want to talk abou the $100-200 price point...
(6:04:11 PM) democritus: :D
(6:04:34 PM) Nottestuser: k, enough evil guy talk for the day.
(6:04:37 PM) democritus: ok- fuck the system and all that- it just really occurred to me how highly inefficient i am being
(6:05:09 PM) democritus: hehe
(6:05:16 PM) democritus: i am on the intertubes- i am TOUGH
(6:05:44 PM) Nottestuser: Yup. I've recently gotten on an efficiency kick myself.
(6:05:49 PM) democritus: the internet would be cooler if it really were like those bank teller tubes
(6:06:15 PM) Nottestuser: Indeed.
(6:06:36 PM) democritus: but then somebody in demoines would try to have sex with their tubes and it would hose up the works
(6:06:40 PM) democritus: inevitably
(6:06:46 PM) Nottestuser: There'd be awhole econnomy around building things that fit in a 3" diameter pipe.
(6:06:54 PM) democritus: heh
(6:07:08 PM) democritus: i am up for serious discourse- i just got home though- gimme a few to pet the cat- etc
(6:07:11 PM) Neverender left the room.
(6:07:35 PM) Nottestuser: Like there's a whole manufaturing industry around what fits ina standa shipping container.
(6:07:39 PM) Neverender [n.bernardi@pacificaglobal.com/Gajim] entered the room.
(6:12:09 PM) Nottestuser: So while the FNF and FSP stuff is all well and good, I don't see any material goals from that work being met for a long time.
(6:13:06 PM) Nottestuser: I think it's unrealistic to bank on the kind of reaction the FNF got back when it was on Digg. Even if it did, we all saw that lots of attention is not always good.
(6:13:42 PM) Nottestuser: There's no greater pile of idiots than the internet and wading through the Nanos to find the Neverenders is not fun.
(6:13:51 PM) democritus: ^
(6:13:53 PM) democritus: ya
(6:14:04 PM) Nottestuser: So I say screw 'em all.
(6:14:10 PM) democritus: k
(6:14:16 PM) democritus: i get the hot females
(6:14:28 PM) democritus: you can screw the others
(6:14:29 PM) democritus: :D
(6:14:47 PM) Nottestuser: Do the society stuff in the background, don't publisize it, just sit back and chat and write and make sure the site is indexed and readable by outsiders if they come.
(6:15:05 PM) Nottestuser: Then, find something else to attarct idiots. And make money. And hookers.
(6:15:59 PM) democritus: right- i have some personal things i need to do on the internets
(6:16:15 PM) democritus: my own failure it aint done, no one elses
(6:16:21 PM) democritus: everything else is Neverender's fault though
(6:16:23 PM) democritus: squarely
(6:16:26 PM) Nottestuser: Which is why I was interested in doing the game. In adition to that I'm curious about how the whole web buisness model works and I'd like to experiment with creating something that uses it. I'd be totally happy if it just covered it's own costs and maybe bought me some ammo now and again.
(6:16:43 PM) Nottestuser: LOL! :)
(6:16:49 PM) democritus: yes but you are not the only one here-
(6:16:59 PM) democritus: each person has different motivations
(6:17:06 PM) democritus: for some its not a matter of spare ammo
(6:17:13 PM) democritus: not yelling or being a dick
(6:17:23 PM) Nottestuser: I'm only saying what I want at the moment. We've gotta all start with that and see what turns up.
(6:17:31 PM) democritus: there are alot of people who just cannot cope with this system and what we are supposed to live for
(6:17:49 PM) Neverender: hmm?
(6:17:56 PM) democritus: its your fault
(6:17:58 PM) Neverender: oh hi
(6:18:03 PM) Neverender: kk
(6:19:35 PM) democritus: fair enough matt- i think one of the first things people would like to do is come off the grid so to speak--
(6:19:50 PM) democritus: not talking about dropping out- i am talking about have a close knit group of people that make money
(6:20:31 PM) democritus: self-efficiency must be first goal- maybe we start with just the handful of people here- and we drop the social action piece most of us feel strongly for now- to concentrate on one set of goals at a time
(6:20:33 PM) democritus: not sure
(6:21:02 PM) Nottestuser: See, I agree however I think step 1 to being self-sufficient is being able to afford it.
(6:22:28 PM) Nottestuser: Hence I want a demonstratable way to generate revenue. Barring that a demonstratable way to put food in my mouth that, I hope, doesn't involve a hoe.
(6:22:38 PM) democritus: right
(6:22:42 PM) Neverender: busy
(6:22:44 PM) Neverender: here in a few
(6:23:27 PM) Nottestuser: That's why I want to coast on the societal action stuff, keep dreaming and discussing, but don't expect anything to actually happen on it until it's financially possible.
(6:24:29 PM) democritus: kk
(6:24:38 PM) democritus: not a bad point
(6:25:10 PM) Nottestuser: If we can come up with something that pays it's own costs (like ads from a game paying for the servers the game runs on) then that demonstrates that we can work as a team to get something done that doesn't screw us over. To me that's a very important step.
(6:25:22 PM) democritus: although for some things our members can push a message
(6:25:26 PM) democritus: maybe not exactly what we are doing
(6:25:37 PM) democritus: but to put A REAL differing point of view out there
(6:25:54 PM) democritus: i have that need internally- so i guess i can take that to my own personal space for now-
(6:26:50 PM) democritus: i thought the game was good, the idea was marketable- of course the real key is not one of us was/is fluent with the language involved
(6:26:54 PM) democritus: and no graphic artist!
(6:27:06 PM) democritus: that is a very big hurdle- and what deflated me most
(6:27:36 PM) democritus: you know who would be awesome on the project matt?
(6:27:39 PM) democritus: Daemon
(6:28:28 PM) aegis: I don't think any of us have believed that anything will realistically come from our ideology side of things for awhile, most of that push is about making recruiting active again because we are very short on people right now which effects our business endeavours.
(6:28:36 PM) Nottestuser: See, I never did any actual coding on the game itself because of the lack of art.
(6:28:57 PM) democritus: actually- aegis think a little different
(6:29:04 PM) democritus: screw recruiting
(6:29:08 PM) democritus: we got what we got-
(6:29:15 PM) Nottestuser: I know I can code the engine to make it work and come up with rules for it. I know I can't do the art. I can probably learn enough HTML to make it feel ok.
(6:29:17 PM) democritus: recruit only to fill need
(6:29:29 PM) democritus: to put people in place that can help achieve our objective
(6:29:53 PM) Nottestuser: I also think new people need to have something to attarct them.
(6:30:05 PM) democritus: aegis: i am not being authoritarian here- feel free to disagree
(6:30:06 PM) democritus: :D
(6:30:09 PM) Nottestuser: And besides, so what no one knows crap about art. Someone learn.
(6:30:25 PM) democritus: there you go
(6:30:36 PM) democritus: not sure that applies to art- but damn near anything else
(6:30:49 PM) Nottestuser: Art really isn't hard. At least basic layout design and graphics manipulation.
(6:31:04 PM) democritus: for you
(6:31:12 PM) democritus: :D
(6:31:24 PM) democritus: i am anti-artistic when it comes to graphics
(6:31:27 PM) democritus: :D
(6:31:42 PM) Nottestuser: Oh, no, it's hard for me. It's not natural. But if you look at artists sites they're just formulating and applying rules just like any other dicipline.
(6:32:03 PM) democritus: gotcha- but we would need someone with at least a desire and a little aptitude
(6:32:10 PM) Nottestuser: We don't need a Picaso to start a revolution. Just someone to make some pictures that are non-offensive.
(6:32:28 PM) democritus: i have neither- and yes i get your point- a formula is a formula - with art there is still a "personal touch" thing involved
(6:32:37 PM) Nottestuser: I wouldn't be totaly oposed but I think I'd be better at other things.
(6:32:46 PM) democritus: aegis: ?
(6:32:56 PM) democritus: got anything to bring to the table there?
(6:33:38 PM) democritus: aegis: we are just talking right now--- the basic idea is to stop trying to be 3 things- we know we are pretty solid with each other- and where each other stands-
(6:33:59 PM) democritus: it is a pretty decent base to put money into- that money as fucked as it is, is the key
(6:34:06 PM) Nottestuser: Ok, so we're starting to presume that we're going to go back to the game idea. Are we really wanting to go down that path now or do we have more to discuss.
(6:34:08 PM) democritus: as then what we say BECOMES A REAL OPTION
(6:34:26 PM) democritus: well so far its just me and you
(6:34:31 PM) democritus: maybe we should go make dinner
(6:34:31 PM) democritus: :D
(6:34:56 PM) democritus: however, i know tux would be behind this overall push to focus on making money
(6:35:18 PM) aegis: If we have the available skills to complete the game, we might as well do it. But it wasn't going anywhere for quite awhile, like a lot of our work.
(6:35:28 PM) democritus: cause i am just getting further and further into the hooks of the "man" by having my living provided the way it is now
(6:35:37 PM) democritus: aegis: yeah-
(6:35:47 PM) democritus: personally- i am telling you- I am done with that-
(6:35:50 PM) aegis: I think we're fully capable of doing both business and ideology work, if people get their mindset in the right place.
(6:36:00 PM) democritus: i accomplish or i pack it up and go the fuck home
(6:36:05 PM) democritus: and stfu
(6:36:08 PM) democritus: fail
(6:36:09 PM) Nottestuser: As fucked as it is, yes, we need money. We're in the societal ghetto now; the middle class held back away from any levers of society. We need to get out of the ghetto. Then we can think about pulling stuff.
(6:36:31 PM) democritus: aegis: i think it has to be all money to start
(6:36:38 PM) democritus: with personal writings, etc-
(6:36:44 PM) democritus: that should be going on now
(6:36:45 PM) democritus: and isnt
(6:36:56 PM) democritus: we could have been going 4 hours a day on it- why havent we ?
(6:37:16 PM) aegis: Right, but we're going to have a shortage on people for anything we want to do.
(6:37:19 PM) democritus: because no one is sure if it will stick, we get motivated do a lot of work- we see hardly any dent in the overall load of work needed doing
(6:37:20 PM) democritus: etc
(6:37:28 PM) democritus: not for making money aegis
(6:37:41 PM) democritus: shortage for changing the world and building that organization to its fullest hell yeah
(6:37:45 PM) Nottestuser: Because no one else is :) I know I can't finish it myself so I don't want to start if no one else is going to help because then I'll have another half finished thing.
(6:37:49 PM) democritus: and i would never say "close" membershipo
(6:37:52 PM) democritus: -o
(6:38:19 PM) democritus: matt EXACTLY
(6:38:52 PM) aegis: I'm sure everyone is thinking the same thing.
(6:38:54 PM) democritus: i am saving this conversation btw- i will put it on a pastebin like place-- then put it into topic
(6:38:58 PM) democritus: aegis: they are
(6:38:58 PM) Neverender: mmm
(6:39:00 PM) democritus: everyone
(6:39:03 PM) Nottestuser: Well, I know exactly what to start on if we're going to do the game.
(6:39:09 PM) aegis: Which is why everything comes to a halt before it really gets going.
(6:39:10 PM) democritus: well that would help
(6:39:27 PM) democritus: :D
(6:39:44 PM) democritus: i can give 2.5hrs tonight guaranteed
(6:39:45 PM) Nottestuser: And Demo, you need to stop picking a new tool dejour so we all don't have to keep running around like crazy people tryuing to figure out what anyone said yesterday.
(6:39:46 PM) democritus: possibly more
(6:39:51 PM) democritus: ME?
(6:40:00 PM) democritus: you should see THEM?!!!!
(6:40:07 PM) democritus: they changed trackers
(6:40:13 PM) democritus: oh yeah- we gotta discuss that to
(6:40:19 PM) Nottestuser: Yeah, you Mr Google docs, pastebin, kodo, wiki
(6:40:46 PM) democritus: actually i have settled --- pastebin/zoho
(6:41:10 PM) democritus: a lot of our members like trackers
(6:41:21 PM) democritus: so they built one- it has no torrents in it
(6:41:24 PM) democritus: and is broken all to hell
(6:41:32 PM) democritus: can we just say it is a bad idea at this time?
(6:41:54 PM) democritus: unless someone has figured out how to do a bittorrent/netsukuku package- and has a team of lawyers
(6:42:01 PM) Neverender: the tracker is a seperate thing
(6:42:11 PM) Neverender: non pacg/fsp or whatever
(6:42:14 PM) democritus: is that wise?
(6:42:24 PM) Neverender: is what wise?
(6:42:39 PM) democritus: what is the gain expected?
(6:42:49 PM) democritus: if you keep it personal you are going to get buttfucked
(6:42:52 PM) Neverender: a cool tracker?
(6:43:02 PM) democritus: no protection whatsoever from legal action
(6:43:19 PM) Neverender: if its pacg then pacg will get buttfucked
(6:43:27 PM) Nottestuser: Yeah. Not interested in the tracker. Leave taht to Pirate Bay and their fancy nordic laws.
(6:43:29 PM) aegis: Seeing as none of us live in Sweden, yeah.
(6:43:46 PM) Nottestuser: No liabilities on our servers.
(6:43:53 PM) Nottestuser: Next topic....
(6:43:57 PM) Nottestuser: :)
(6:44:17 PM) democritus: your personal liability can be the groups concern ya know
(6:44:18 PM) democritus: :P
(6:44:40 PM) democritus: the law is a funky thing my friend
(6:44:48 PM) democritus: you get your "portion" of pacg "seized"
(6:44:59 PM) democritus: wtf--- that would be something i would be concerned about
(6:45:28 PM) democritus: but i cant stop you of course :)
(6:45:47 PM) democritus: still see it as a waste and unneeded risk if we are not going full balls on for it
(6:45:54 PM) democritus: which would require a team of lawy..................
(6:45:54 PM) Neverender: anyway yeah Nottestuser, about the game, i'm kinda on the other side of it. i'm a little iffy with the engine/code stuff but html/making it look ok i can defnity do (other than graphics)
(6:46:37 PM) Neverender: demo "we" arent
(6:46:46 PM) democritus: so says you
(6:46:49 PM) democritus: me and randy were
(6:46:56 PM) democritus: as we had been talking about it
(6:47:00 PM) democritus: and me and him are partners
(6:47:18 PM) democritus: meaning- if he was going to do it- and nothing else was going to happen
(6:47:28 PM) democritus: i told him i was also in- and he said of course-
(6:49:21 PM) Nottestuser: Never: well, that's a start. I see another big part of this being the buisness part. Until we can afford our own island we're going to need an interface to the rest of the world. We've got to pay taxes and fend off lawyers.
(6:55:37 PM) democritus: sooooo
(6:55:40 PM) democritus: its all jacks fault
(6:55:41 PM) democritus: figures
(6:55:43 PM) democritus: :D
(6:55:50 PM) democritus: nm - lets go on
(6:56:09 PM) democritus: the game is decent- i really feel that way-
(6:56:48 PM) democritus: but as i just told never in pm- i 100% do not care the profit source, as long as it is attainable, and we can work in unison as a group on it. I do feel this is very important - because that is true to the core philosophies we had talked about
(6:58:03 PM) democritus: with that - i need to at least make some rice or something
(6:58:09 PM) democritus: lurk mode for a rew
(6:58:12 PM) democritus: few
(6:58:35 PM) Nottestuser: Likewise here. I would just like the revenue source to come from computer related work, preferably web services.
(6:59:34 PM) Neverender: yeah
(7:05:46 PM) democritus: yeap
(7:10:44 PM) aegis: I agree. Only concern I have is that in the long run, we end up doing work we can enjoy.
(7:11:31 PM) aegis: So the focus is back on the game then, correct?
(7:14:17 PM) democritus: aegis: that should always be both a goal and a constant worry
(7:14:50 PM) democritus: where the hell is randy
(7:15:21 PM) Jack [j.laxson@pacificaglobal.com/Adium] entered the room.