Maloeran The 12 apostles aren't even 12 if you count them, more about 15 or 16
Dr^Nick not officially
Maloeran It's ambiguous, I remember they might have used different names for the same characters since some descriptions were similar
Maloeran At least 14 anyway, I definitely counted
Dr^Nick http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/apostles.htm
Unition I have never even sat with a bible in my hand for more then 8 minuts
Maloeran Ah this was 10 years ago, but if you read carefully, you'll find more
Unition or stood for that matter
Dr^Nick Maloeran - eh, I don't know about that
Dr^Nick :)
Dr^Nick Because they change their names as they act and stuff...
Maloeran Yes, I had tried to keep track of this... Anyway, it's like the different evangiles don't agree on who some of the "lesser" apostles are
Dr^Nick yep
Dr^Nick the # of them really is unimportant
Dr^Nick The were not labelled at the time of their actions
Dr^Nick that came later
Dr^Nick and independently from different groups
Dr^Nick the standard is that there were 21
Dr^Nick er 12
Maloeran I suppose it's a detail. The best quotes are probably... like the one about that man, who was made drunk by his two daughters, then raped and infanted them, but God said it's all good since he was drunk at the time
* Maloeran only remembers vaguely
Dr^Nick I remember that from sunday school
Dr^Nick You got it backwards though
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Maloeran Yes it's possible
Dr^Nick His daughters got him drunk and raped him.
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Unition and gods ok with that ?
* Rangar blinks and wonders what convo he walked in to
Dr^Nick They had just watch their entire civilization collapse
Maloeran Sure he was
Dr^Nick they thought they were the last people alive.
Dr^Nick as such, they though they had to repopulate the earth
Dr^Nick (They were uneducated women after all)
Rangar um,m are we talking Noah?
Dr^Nick ya
Maloeran Some other nice contradictions are related to God never feeling angry, or desperate... for this to be contradicted a few paragraphs later
Rangar um,m it was his sons not his daughters that raped him
Rangar Thats why he cursed them
Dr^Nick hm. then not noah. there was one where his daughters did
Maloeran Ah, I don't remember names
Rangar You mean Lot ;)
Dr^Nick sure
Dr^Nick that sounds a Lot like the right name.
Dr^Nick mal - yep
Rangar Lot didn't do his fatherly duty and got them husbands, but because he didn't and his daughters wanted children, they didn't have much options
Dr^Nick God as the bible portrays can not exist according to our knowledge of the universe.
Maloeran I was 12-13 at the time, and I couldn't help thinking that God had a very childish psychological profile
Rangar Nick: why do you say that?
Dr^Nick People like myself know that and say "damnit all anyway"
Dr^Nick Rangar - If god is all powerful and perfect, he can do anything - but he can do no wrong.
Rangar I don't mind a good theological debate if thats the current ;)
Dr^Nick so there is something he can't do
Dr^Nick thus he is either not all powerful or not perfect
Dr^Nick we can easily show that by our laws of the universe, he can not be all powerful
Dr^Nick assume god is all powerful -> Can god create a problem he can not solve?
Rangar Nick: The Bible never says that in the terms you reflect ... Thats like the age old "Can God create a rock He cannot lift", common sense is required :)
_Astaroth Dr^Nick: Einsten, Edward Witten and Richard P. Feynman were all very relighous people
Dr^Nick _Astaroth - no, they werent
Unition unless he is the programmer and has not friended us to his privates
Maloeran We never had any observation, even hints, regarding the supposed existence of some god. That debate is meaningless, it should remain on the topic of some piece of ancient science-fiction
_Astaroth youre right.. religious then :P
Dr^Nick Nope :)
_Astaroth then they are lying
Rangar Unition: You bring up a valid point - one of science's latest thinkings is that the universe is a holographic program, I was readning all about it in last Augusts Science magazine
_Astaroth which might be possible of course
_Astaroth but they say they are
Dr^Nick _Astaroth = Einstien said he believed in a god yes. He also said he did not believe in a personal god.
Unition hahaha nice!
Dr^Nick To quote paul erdos 'I know because I asked him'
Rangar Einstein was also Jewish, but I believe not practicing any in way, shape or form
_Astaroth whats a "personal god" and how does it define religion?
_Astaroth and how does "believe in god" != religious
Maloeran If god is impersonal, then you might well call it the uncertainty principle
Rangar Ast: A personal God is one you have a relationship with (just like a friend, talk to etc), a non-personal God is one where he demands worship only
Unition I think religion is a great thing but I also think it was invented by man for man to keep us good
Dr^Nick _Astaroth - A non-personal god is something that designed the universe, but does not even have to be concious
Rangar also as Nick put it, it could be defined in several ways
_Astaroth Dr^Nick:sure.. but why does the god have to be concious for someone to be religious
_Astaroth ?
Maloeran Get it right Unition, it was invented by men to keep other men into submission and ignorance
Dr^Nick I suppose it doesn't. it does require worship. another thing lacking from einstiens life.
Rangar Christianity defines God as a God who wants a relationship with people, to be involved in their everyday lives
Unition you hit the nail on the head there :)
Rangar through prayer this is accumplished
Dr^Nick Maloeran - I disagree.
_Astaroth yeah, but all the names I mentioned are Jews
Dr^Nick Religion was the first science.
Unition religion is a cult
_Astaroth Religion is utter madness
Rangar One of the major flaws to Christianity to the world is the lack of understanding exactly what Christianity is
Maloeran Throughout the ages, it was a powerful tool used by the power in place to assure its control over the masses
Dr^Nick But as science moved, religion didn't keep up (people couldn't afford the education)
Dr^Nick Maloeran =- absolutely
Dr^Nick But it was originally an attempt at science
Dr^Nick A way to explain the unknown
_Astaroth there are 50k or so different branches in christianity that are incompatible in many ways
Maloeran Yes, I suppose, people brought up theories to explain their universe
_Astaroth so the odds for any one of them being "right" is pretty slim :P
Unition and they got burnt
Maloeran A pity they didn't have the scientific method back then
Dr^Nick It wasn't until much later that it was used for control
Rangar hmm interesting, Maybe you guys need to do some Bible readong and see that the Bible has answers in it science is just discovering
Unition science is the new religion
Rangar Job in the Bible is a good place to start with a scientific background
Maloeran I have read the Bible twice, Hal, you won't find much in there besides absurdity and contradictions
Unition science and the commandments are what I base my life around
Dr^Nick Mal - Imho people take it the wrong way
Dr^Nick I mean, look at the 10 commandments for example
Rangar Mal: example?
Dr^Nick essentially it says "don't be a retard"
Dr^Nick don't dip your spoon in your neighbours pudding, and keep your nose clean.
Unition :)
Dr^Nick beyond that there are health codes
Rangar The Commandments had another job... to show us we fall below God's standards for us
Maloeran Hal, way too many to count and name, I had taken notes back then... http://skepticsannotatedbible.org/
Unition we should write the 21 century commandments
Maloeran Thou shall not download illegal music
Dr^Nick Essentially the bible is a health (physical and mental) guide to a happy life.
Dr^Nick In the old testament you couldn't eat pork...
Dr^Nick in the new, you could
Dr^Nick why? Better cooking technology.
Unition I thought that was sabbath ?
_Astaroth the old testament described ways to torture and kill hethens
Unition hahaha
_Astaroth the real one, not the modern one
Dr^Nick it talks about preventing std's
Rangar _Ast: There is a good reaosn for that
Dr^Nick and that sort of thing
Dr^Nick it just got pushed too far by zealots
Unition so the bible was the media back in the day
Dr^Nick people who didn't understand what was going on
Dr^Nick people who took it literally
_Astaroth Rangar: of course.. religion is and always has been, a tool for the people in power to control the stupid masses
_Astaroth just look at Bush
Rangar _Ast: Look in Genesis Ch6 it mentions the Nephelim (PART human offspring), when Israel came out of Egypt and had to travel to the promised land, the hethen that God told them to wipe out were either Nephilum or part of their culture.
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Twingy hrm
Twingy guess it's bed time
Unition :D
Unition you dont even know what you walked into
_Astaroth eheh
Maloeran Indeed Justin :)
Dr^Nick Religion shouldn't impeed a scientific mind.
Maloeran Hal, there are instructions regarding how one should properly buy a slave, or sell a daughter, too
Dr^Nick No god who gave me a brain would encourage me to forgo its use
_Astaroth and the "part human offspring" sounds like nazism to me
_Astaroth maybe hitler was right
Unition heh
Rangar Nick: On the contrary, The God of the Bible encourages it - in several places He sayd that all is made for man and for man to expore, look at Soloman, God gave him the gift of science
Dr^Nick Rangar - Ok. And we know the bible is contradictory
Dr^Nick Period
Dr^Nick Not even the pope of the catholic church can deny it
_Astaroth I'm sure he will :)
Rangar Mal: in our culture we don't endorse slavery, but other cultures on earth even today say it's the norm, so what culture is right?
Rangar Nick: I disagree :)
Dr^Nick People have messed with what it says for a very long time, it was written by multiple authors with some first, some second, and some third (or greater) hand accounts
Maloeran I'm sure I can remember some of the passages where God broke its own 10 commandments...
Maloeran I remember reading that he swore to himself once
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