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Miscellany
Friday, February 15th, 2008 at 11:56:33pm UTC 

  1. (04:43:36 AM) dholbach: MOTU Q&A session in 17 minutes
  2. (05:00:37 AM) dholbach: Welcome to another MOTU Q&A session!
  3. (05:00:44 AM) dholbach: Who do we have here for the session today?
  4. (05:01:18 AM) dholbach: Come on now... don't be shy :)
  5. (05:01:39 AM) ***albert23 is trying to fix some bugs
  6. (05:01:57 AM) dholbach: hey albert23 - excellent!
  7. (05:02:00 AM) dholbach: what are you working on?
  8. (05:02:11 AM) albert23: dholbach: gwget2 and gcal
  9. (05:02:20 AM) dholbach: what are the bugs you're looking at?
  10. (05:02:39 AM) albert23: dholbach: gcal fails to run on amd64
  11. (05:02:55 AM) albert23: a rebuild would be sufficient, but the package is quite old
  12. (05:03:13 AM) dholbach: so you're trying to update it at the same time?
  13. (05:03:27 AM) albert23: would I need to update the standards version and dh_compat?
  14. (05:03:31 AM) ***HighNo wonders is MOTU Q&A means MOTUs asking stuff or users asking MOTUs...
  15. (05:03:49 AM) dholbach: HighNo: whoever wants to ask questions about stuff related to MOTU, bring it on
  16. (05:04:14 AM) dholbach: albert23: if you update the standards-version, you say "this package complies with the specified version of the debian policy"
  17. (05:04:43 AM) albert23: dholbach: yes indeed, I checked the summary list of changes for that
  18. (05:05:00 AM) dholbach: for packages we inherit from debian it doesn't make much sense, since it's a one line change 1) we have to merge manually every time we merge with debian, 2) doesn't have any visible impact
  19. (05:05:18 AM) dholbach: albert23: great you read it - the debian policy is the number one document to look things up in
  20. (05:05:38 AM) albert23: So it would be ok to leave standards-version at 3.5.5?
  21. (05:05:49 AM) dholbach: we try to keep the diff between debian and ubuntu as small as possible
  22. (05:05:50 AM) dholbach: absolutely
  23. (05:06:08 AM) albert23: OK, and dh_compat=3, we can leave that as well?
  24. (05:06:09 AM) dholbach: even if lintian complains, it's not something worth doing the upload for
  25. (05:06:35 AM) dholbach: yes, that specifies the debhelper compatibility level - if you have no reason to change it, leave it as it is
  26. (05:07:02 AM) dholbach: we are (or are going to be) in Feature Freeze soon, this means that no new upstream versions are excepted
  27. (05:07:14 AM) albert23: dholbach: so then I just need to request the rebuild?
  28. (05:07:21 AM) HighNo: I tried my first fix on a security related bug and of course it took hours to get things done but I finally manged to upload a debdiff to the bug. I only did it for my system which is feisty - are we supposed to get the fix done for all versions once we started on one version? And is there a nice Wiki describing step by step how doing security fixes (for which an upstream bugfix as been released)?
  29. (05:07:26 AM) dholbach: but if the new version you would use fixes a lot of bugs, you might want to think about requesting a feature freeze exception
  30. (05:07:57 AM) theseinfeld: how long until you get an answer for a FFE?
  31. (05:07:59 AM) dholbach: albert23: just add a debian/changelog entry for the rebuild, then submit it for sponsoring
  32. (05:08:09 AM) albert23: dholbach: OK thanks
  33. (05:08:23 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: pretty quickly - the 5 people that are on the team are all very good and very reactive
  34. (05:08:36 AM) dholbach: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
  35. (05:08:36 AM) theseinfeld: thanks
  36. (05:08:44 AM) dholbach: is the document you might want to check up on
  37. (05:09:24 AM) dholbach: HighNo: I suggest you get in touch with keescook and jdstrand - they are both the security masters and know what to check and which documents to read
  38. (05:09:46 AM) HighNo: dholbach: thanks.
  39. (05:10:02 AM) dholbach: from the top of my head I don't know of any security related wiki pages or anything, but that's probably just because I always trusted them to do good work and never got into security stuff myself :)
  40. (05:11:03 AM) dholbach: it's great you're all interested in the MOTU landscape - how did you find your journey so far? is everything going OK? things you'd like to see improved?
  41. (05:11:05 AM) HighNo: I didn't do that before too. I was just hanging around in #ubuntu-motu and ScottK came up with it being something one could learn a lot from. So I gave it a try...
  42. (05:11:43 AM) ***HighNo praises the MOTUs - #ubuntu-motu is hell of place for quick and good answers.
  43. (05:11:56 AM) dholbach: nice, security is hugely important, so if you can learn something and give Kees and Jamie a hand, that's awesome
  44. (05:12:23 AM) dholbach: what about the documentation? is it OK? do you have the feeling you're all progressing?
  45. (05:12:33 AM) HighNo: They helped me getting my package (not being packaged before) into hardy even 5 days before FF.
  46. (05:12:49 AM) theseinfeld: HighNo you are lucky :)
  47. (05:12:50 AM) HighNo: dholbach: packaging docs were kind of confusing
  48. (05:13:18 AM) dholbach: Feature Freeze is a very busy time
  49. (05:13:31 AM) dholbach: HighNo: do you have an example or anything specific you'd like to see change?
  50. (05:14:05 AM) HighNo: dholbach: it was the pure amount of information and not having a nice step-by-step thing.
  51. (05:14:41 AM) HighNo: dholbach: if there is a packaging guide hello-world thing, I didn't find it, if there is none - we need it :-)
  52. (05:14:56 AM) dholbach: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted links to it
  53. (05:15:07 AM) dholbach: it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
  54. (05:15:30 AM) ***albert23 thinks the packaging guide is great
  55. (05:15:31 AM) dholbach: if that's not obvious enough, we need to fix it
  56. (05:15:34 AM) dholbach: hey walmis
  57. (05:15:41 AM) dholbach: albert23: I'm glad you say that
  58. (05:15:47 AM) bardyr: how much programming/scripting knowledge do you need to create perfect debs?
  59. (05:15:54 AM) dholbach: I spent quite a lot of time merging millions of wiki pages into it :)
  60. (05:16:05 AM) dholbach: bardyr: good question :)
  61. (05:16:22 AM) HighNo: dholbach: as I said, there was too much info on it. I love check lists that have a linked 'why' thing on it. like this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpstreamGuide  (not surprisingly I did the list part :-)
  62. (05:16:28 AM) theseinfeld: define perfect debs bardyr?
  63. (05:16:29 AM) dholbach: bardyr: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ#head-1459f4f9811bc9dde6cae1af4c36c954ba1cad39
  64. (05:16:30 AM) theseinfeld: :D
  65. (05:16:52 AM) dholbach: if you start learning modifying packages, creating new packages from scratch is just a step away
  66. (05:17:16 AM) dholbach: HighNo: like http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn ?
  67. (05:17:23 AM) bardyr: dholbach, thanks :)
  68. (05:17:30 AM) HighNo: dholbach: the problem is - I started by packaging a new one. qute adventurous :-)
  69. (05:17:54 AM) HighNo: dholbach: Doh! I didn't read that one!
  70. (05:17:54 AM) dholbach: yes it is, I learned a lot from looking at other packages and trying to fix them first
  71. (05:18:10 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach can you add about the debian files like .dirs, .install, .files something in the howto?
  72. (05:18:37 AM) HighNo: dholbach: it only took me 14 uploads to get my package advocated :-) I am sure some MOTUs have me on their ignore list (or were seriously thinking about it)
  73. (05:18:48 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach I know that people can find the info in some man pages or google, but to save them from the trouble...and yes, I know I could add them myself...but...heck I love delegating :))
  74. (05:19:05 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: added to my todo list
  75. (05:19:22 AM) dholbach: I will put that Improving Docs todo list on the wiki somewhere soon
  76. (05:19:34 AM) dholbach: HighNo: not really
  77. (05:19:49 AM) dholbach: there's so much stuff to bear in mind
  78. (05:20:23 AM) theseinfeld: also a section about watch
  79. (05:20:43 AM) dholbach: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/DebianWatch
  80. (05:20:56 AM) theseinfeld: I don't remember seeing it in the howto's...ok...it is there now...I am getting old :))
  81. (05:21:00 AM) dholbach: if you come across a really good package and you can get others to agree on that, we should add it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages
  82. (05:22:10 AM) dholbach: any more questions?
  83. (05:22:34 AM) HighNo: I have to go now but will read the transscript later on. One last thing - even though it was a lot of work I had a great time creating the package and talking to all the geeks in #ubuntu-motu.
  84. (05:22:47 AM) albert23: dholbach: what is the exact requirement for build twice on a row?
  85. (05:23:03 AM) albert23: Does it also apply to source build after binary build?
  86. (05:23:26 AM) HighNo left the room.
  87. (05:23:31 AM) dholbach: albert23: are you referring to building a package two times (two different compile options for example)
  88. (05:24:10 AM) albert23: dholbach: I have a package using automake. It builds and runs fine, but doing debuild -S after a binary build fails
  89. (05:24:22 AM) dholbach: ahh ok
  90. (05:24:28 AM) albert23: The changes from automake cannot be represented in the diff
  91. (05:24:52 AM) dholbach: that's probably because the clean target does not do it's job alright
  92. (05:25:24 AM) dholbach: in the pristine tarball from upstream, does    make distcheck    work?
  93. (05:25:37 AM) dholbach: that's usually a good way to test it
  94. (05:25:42 AM) albert23: dholbach: I haven't tried that
  95. (05:25:57 AM) dholbach: if that fails, it's probably an upstream bug
  96. (05:26:09 AM) albert23: dholbach: This is one example: dpkg-source: cannot represent change to intltool-merge.in:
  97. (05:26:39 AM) dholbach: is the version number and the source directory name correct?
  98. (05:26:52 AM) dholbach: that can be a problem too
  99. (05:27:01 AM) albert23: yes, they seem to be ok
  100. (05:27:03 AM) thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
  101. (05:27:14 AM) dholbach: <package> (<upstreamversion>-<revision>)...    in debian/changelog
  102. (05:27:29 AM) dholbach: <package>-<upstreamversion>   <- as source directory name
  103. (05:27:39 AM) dholbach: oh and also the .orig.tar.gz
  104. (05:27:50 AM) dholbach: <package>_<upstreamversion>.orig.tar.gz
  105. (05:28:13 AM) dholbach: the versioning should be the problem in this case
  106. (05:28:33 AM) dholbach: intltool-merge.in is just a text file and the change should be easily representable in the diff
  107. (05:28:34 AM) ***warp10 joins the classroom...
  108. (05:28:38 AM) dholbach: hey warp10
  109. (05:28:41 AM) dholbach: good to have you
  110. (05:29:10 AM) warp10: hi dholbach and all... and sorry for coming so late
  111. (05:29:15 AM) albert23: dholbach: it says new version is symlink,  old version is something else
  112. (05:29:41 AM) albert23: But I guess this is indeed a problem and I need to fix it
  113. (05:30:00 AM) dholbach: albert23: try to make it non-symlinks and stick to the pattern I mentioned above
  114. (05:30:00 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach, when you use launchpad PPA and REVU and you build in PPA, should you have a convention there as well?
  115. (05:30:31 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach I am asking you this because people might use PPA and later when they get the packages from REVU/distro might get into trouble with superseeding?
  116. (05:30:44 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: I'm sorry, but I have to admit that we don't have a good review process around PPAs yet
  117. (05:31:02 AM) dholbach: yes, getting the versioning in PPA right is critically important
  118. (05:31:23 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach there is no review process there :) but the building itself, nevertheless, there are people using PPAs as repositories
  119. (05:31:24 AM) dholbach: 1.2.3-4ubuntu5~ppa6 for example would be OK
  120. (05:31:28 AM) theseinfeld: like KDE4 people
  121. (05:31:45 AM) theseinfeld: and then, when it gets into the upstream you find yourself in a mess
  122. (05:31:49 AM) dholbach: does everybody know about the ~ operator in versions?
  123. (05:31:58 AM) theseinfeld: yes
  124. (05:32:01 AM) theseinfeld: and still...
  125. (05:32:30 AM) theseinfeld: lets say 0ubuntu1~hardy1~svn123~ppa123
  126. (05:32:33 AM) dholbach: still=
  127. (05:32:36 AM) dholbach: still?
  128. (05:32:59 AM) theseinfeld: I am thinking that it might be good to have it mentioned somewhere?
  129. (05:33:04 AM) theseinfeld: for ethernity :)
  130. (05:33:24 AM) theseinfeld: s/ethernity/eternity/
  131. (05:33:25 AM) dholbach: it is mentioned in http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
  132. (05:33:41 AM) dholbach: which is THE ppa howto
  133. (05:34:20 AM) dholbach: if you think there should be more capital letters, I can pass this on .)
  134. (05:34:22 AM) theseinfeld: checing
  135. (05:34:33 AM) dholbach: "Versioning:"
  136. (05:34:33 AM) theseinfeld: s/checing/checking/
  137. (05:35:16 AM) ***dholbach needs a new keyboard, my shift key keeps on popping out
  138. (05:35:24 AM) ***theseinfeld too...
  139. (05:35:41 AM) theseinfeld: Ok, you are right, it was there :)
  140. (05:36:08 AM) ***theseinfeld recommends people to use the PPA for builds and publishing...
  141. (05:36:14 AM) dholbach: any other questions? things we could improve? wacky ideas about initiatives we should start?
  142. (05:36:24 AM) warp10: dholbach: I have a question
  143. (05:36:37 AM) dholbach: warp10: shoot
  144. (05:36:44 AM) warp10: I made it on -motu today, but didn't get an answer,
  145. (05:36:48 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach can we also suggest improvements for the revu?
  146. (05:36:56 AM) warp10: I made a debdiff for a bug I worked on. This debdiff has been rejected by a sponsor because it FTFBS. I pushed it on my PPA and it builds fine there. Do you think this is enough to say that my debdiff works and can resubscribe u-u-s?
  147. (05:37:10 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: I'm not a REVU hacker or admin, but I can pass it on
  148. (05:37:40 AM) dholbach: warp10: sure, best to ask the sponsor what the problem was he mentioned
  149. (05:37:50 AM) dholbach: warp10: it could be that it just fails in a certain scenario or something
  150. (05:38:13 AM) warp10: dholbach: the sponsor attached its log to the bug report. It is bug #190845
  151. (05:38:17 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach it will be nice that you can login from the package page (if it sees that you are not in, instead of displaying the info that you should go in the main, it could just add the form so user can login) AND
  152. (05:38:37 AM) warp10: well, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/seamonkey/+bug/190845
  153. (05:38:54 AM) ***dholbach takes a look
  154. (05:39:06 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach revu after you submit a description, the package URL is not shown...(it goes as http push or something so it is not in the link...)
  155. (05:39:32 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: I think there's a revu product in launchpad, maybe you can file a bug there?
  156. (05:39:38 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: the suggestions sound good though
  157. (05:40:10 AM) dholbach: warp10: try to point Luke to the ppa build log
  158. (05:40:27 AM) warp10: dholbach: I will do. Probably TheMuso will be online this evening or tonight
  159. (05:40:35 AM) dholbach: he's in .au
  160. (05:41:18 AM) warp10: Is it correct to say that if a package builds in a PPA, it will surely build with buildd?
  161. (05:41:40 AM) dholbach: it should, afaik the buildds are nearly identical
  162. (05:41:43 AM) albert23: warp10: it might be the broken dpkg earlier this week...
  163. (05:42:08 AM) dholbach: minus some scripts that run on the ubuntu buildds
  164. (05:42:20 AM) dholbach: Can't locate POSIX.pm in @INC     is weird
  165. (05:42:24 AM) warp10: albert23: ah, good pointer... maybe that's the problem.
  166. (05:42:35 AM) dholbach: warp10: also you can ask asac - he's the mozilla king
  167. (05:42:38 AM) albert23: the error message refers to Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm
  168. (05:42:50 AM) warp10: indeed, it shows Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm
  169. (05:43:08 AM) dholbach: ahh!
  170. (05:43:10 AM) dholbach: good point
  171. (05:43:10 AM) warp10: dholbach: he mentored me for that debdiff :)
  172. (05:43:32 AM) dholbach: I see we have some people with detective skills here :)
  173. (05:44:24 AM) dholbach: rock and roll - good work everybody :)
  174. (05:44:39 AM) ***warp10 loves PPA
  175. (05:44:46 AM) theseinfeld: dholbach bug #192120 for revu
  176. (05:44:49 AM) dholbach: yeah, it's nice
  177. (05:44:53 AM) dholbach: thanks theseinfeld
  178. (05:44:55 AM) ***theseinfeld loves PPA too...
  179. (05:46:03 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld, warp10: I passed on the praise :)
  180. (05:46:15 AM) ***theseinfeld grins...
  181. (05:46:20 AM) dholbach: :-)
  182. (05:46:33 AM) theseinfeld: check bug #191892
  183. (05:46:35 AM) warp10: :D
  184. (05:46:43 AM) theseinfeld: in soyuz
  185. (05:46:55 AM) dholbach: oh, speaking about PPA and stuff
  186. (05:46:56 AM) theseinfeld: It killed my brain 3 days ago
  187. (05:47:07 AM) ***theseinfeld nods at dholbach
  188. (05:47:07 AM) dholbach: I hope you all come to Ubuntu Developer Week next week
  189. (05:47:20 AM) KEBA: are the lessons easy enaugh to unerstand for beginners, who use ubuntu since tweo month?
  190. (05:47:22 AM) dholbach: we have a bunch of good sessions coming up, one of them about PPAs
  191. (05:47:29 AM) ***theseinfeld wishes to come...but too busy at work...
  192. (05:47:47 AM) warp10: dholbach: you can guess on it! I'm looking forward for UDW
  193. (05:47:55 AM) dholbach: KEBA: in this session right now we're asking and answering questions about the MOTU project
  194. (05:47:59 AM) dholbach: warp10: rock on
  195. (05:48:09 AM) dholbach: theseinfeld: at least they'll be logged
  196. (05:48:21 AM) ***theseinfeld nods
  197. (05:48:53 AM) dholbach: any session you would have liked to see which is not on the schedule?
  198. (05:49:21 AM) ***dholbach tried to get a diverse set of speakers
  199. (05:50:10 AM) warp10: dholbach: a session about merges and sync would be nice
  200. (05:50:11 AM) dholbach: if you guys are happy, I'm happy too
  201. (05:50:24 AM) jcastro: I have a debdiff question: Let's say I have a .patch from someone to fix a bug; which is more appropriate, to put a patch in debian/patches, or just generate a debdiff?
  202. (05:50:31 AM) warp10: maybe someone will speak about within another session
  203. (05:50:42 AM) dholbach: james_w will cover some of it in his debian session, and I'll try to do some of it in the motu processes one
  204. (05:50:50 AM) dholbach: warp10: but yeah, important and good point
  205. (05:51:12 AM) ***warp10 loves merges and syncs too :)
  206. (05:51:24 AM) dholbach: jcastro: if the package uses a patch system like dpatch of cdbs' simple-patchsys, you stick the patch into debian/patches and then generate the debdiff
  207. (05:51:39 AM) jcastro: ok
  208. (05:51:45 AM) dholbach: jcastro: if it doesn't use a patch system it's usually not worth introducing a new dependency to use one
  209. (05:52:20 AM) dholbach: I think there's a script called what-patch in ubuntu-dev-tools which finds out for you which system is used
  210. (05:52:30 AM) jcastro: ah, ok, I will try that
  211. (05:52:50 AM) dholbach: afaik Kees wrote it
  212. (05:53:21 AM) jcastro: yes, you are correct, what-patch works, it's in ubuntu-dev-tools
  213. (05:53:32 AM) dholbach: nice
  214. (05:53:36 AM) dholbach: ubuntu-dev-tools is good stuff
  215. (05:54:05 AM) jcastro: yeah I just am looking at it -- manpages for me this morning!
  216. (05:54:13 AM) dholbach: hehe :)
  217. (05:54:31 AM) dholbach: are there any other questions?
  218. (05:55:09 AM) dholbach: in addition to UDW, I need to plug https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day :)
  219. (05:55:32 AM) warp10: cool :)
  220. (05:55:39 AM) albert23: Will the sponsors still like us if we all do that :-)
  221. (05:55:46 AM) dholbach: yeah, the best thing since sliced bread
  222. (05:56:10 AM) dholbach: we will announce it during UDW, but it'd be great to have some traction before that :)
  223. (05:57:28 AM) warp10: I'll give a try to it, sounds pretty funny! :-)
  224. (05:57:44 AM) dholbach: rock and roll
  225. (05:58:00 AM) dholbach: if there are no more questions, let's close the session for today - my dog needs walking and the sun is shining right now :)
  226. (05:58:08 AM) dholbach: and ask all your questions in #ubuntu-motu
  227. (05:58:34 AM) albert23: Many thanks dholbach!
  228. (05:58:35 AM) warp10: thanks dholbach!
  229. (05:58:39 AM) jcastro: thanks!
  230. (05:58:42 AM) dholbach: thanks go to YOU guys
  231. (05:58:44 AM) dholbach: you rock :)
  232. (05:58:49 AM) dholbach: see you around
  233. (06:00:57 AM) dholbach left the room ("Ex-Chat").
  234. (06:04:03 AM) albert23 left the room.
  235. (09:34:10 AM) andy2: exit
  236. (09:34:13 AM) andy2 left the room (quit: Client Quit).

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