(1:54:11 AM) an arbitrary limit: how can you prove that all perception is erroneous or not able to be trusted?
(1:54:21 AM) raptwit: you don't
(1:54:23 AM) an arbitrary limit: it's pretty impossible
(1:54:27 AM) raptwit: it's a futile pursuit
(1:54:27 AM) an arbitrary limit: because all you have is your perception
(1:54:40 AM) an arbitrary limit: and if you have to rely on something
(1:54:42 AM) an arbitrary limit: to disprove it
(1:54:53 AM) an arbitrary limit: then your disproof is as unreliable as the foundation upon which it is built
(1:55:36 AM) an arbitrary limit: like saying that there are no truths
(1:55:43 AM) raptwit: it's an impossible quandary
(1:55:58 AM) an arbitrary limit: there must be some existence outside of perception
(1:56:01 AM) raptwit: so you basically have to ignore it
(1:56:03 AM) an arbitrary limit: well there is
(1:56:11 AM) an arbitrary limit: we exist outside of perception
(1:56:13 AM) an arbitrary limit: somehow
(1:56:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: we interpret our perceptions
(1:56:23 AM) an arbitrary limit: but we exist outside of them
(1:56:32 AM) an arbitrary limit: we are, however, nothing without them
(1:56:41 AM) an arbitrary limit: considering who we are is based off our perceptions
(1:56:54 AM) an arbitrary limit: i meant "we" in two different ways there
(1:57:05 AM) an arbitrary limit: the two separate permutations of we are different
(1:58:10 AM) an arbitrary limit: i'm serious here
(1:58:18 AM) raptwit: I know you are
(1:58:26 AM) an arbitrary limit: i'm making a daft and unwarranted assumption
(1:58:55 AM) an arbitrary limit: well, maybe the incarnation of disproof i'm thinking of is in the wrong direction
(1:59:00 AM) an arbitrary limit: in order to disprove something
(1:59:04 AM) an arbitrary limit: you must assume it is true
(1:59:13 AM) an arbitrary limit: and then act on that assumption to show something else
(1:59:21 AM) an arbitrary limit: and if in the steps between the assumption and proving something else
(1:59:24 AM) an arbitrary limit: there lies an error
(1:59:27 AM) an arbitrary limit: then your assumption must be flawed
(1:59:50 AM) an arbitrary limit: that is how one disproves something mathematically
(2:01:55 AM) an arbitrary limit: the problem is finding something that i can prove with the assumption that "perception is correct"
(2:02:00 AM) an arbitrary limit: or some incarnation thereof
(2:02:09 AM) an arbitrary limit: help me come up with a theory
(2:02:51 AM) an arbitrary limit: i don't know if it could be as simple as, "all perceptions are reliable"
(2:03:02 AM) an arbitrary limit: it can't
(2:03:04 AM) raptwit: not all perceptions are reliable
(2:03:13 AM) an arbitrary limit: because the logical negation of that is
(2:03:19 AM) an arbitrary limit: at least one perception is reliable
(2:03:39 AM) an arbitrary limit: meaning that somewhere, there exists at least one perception that is completely reliable
(2:03:43 AM) an arbitrary limit: which wouldn't help much
(2:04:02 AM) raptwit: you basically have to say that, in lieu of the alternative, people have no choice but to consider their perceptions to be reliable
(2:04:11 AM) an arbitrary limit: oh i know
(2:04:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: at least one perception is reliable
(2:04:25 AM) an arbitrary limit: if you assume that at least one perception is reliable
(2:04:27 AM) an arbitrary limit: and that is shown to be false
(2:04:33 AM) an arbitrary limit: then, logically, no perceptions are reliable
(2:05:40 AM) raptwit: this is the first thought experiment in the philosophy book I picked up
(2:05:47 AM) an arbitrary limit: what?
(2:06:03 AM) raptwit: h/o lemme type it
(2:09:32 AM) raptwit: "Is there anything so self-evident that it cannot be doubted? Is it not possible that our lives are no more than dreams, or that the world is just a figment of our imaginations? Outlandish though these notions are, the mere fact that they are conceivable shows that the reality of the physical would can be doubted. There are other ideas, however, which seem to be so clear and self-evident that they must be true. For instance, whether you are awake or asleep, two and two make four. A triangle has three sides whether the world, real or imaginary, contains triangles or not. But what if God, or some powerful, malicious demon, is tricking you? Couldn't such an evil spirit fool you into believing that the false is obviously true? Haven't we seen hypnotists make people count to ten, unaware that they have missed the number seven? And what of a man who, in a dream, hears four strikes of the clocktower bell and finds himself thinking, 'How odd, the clock has struck one four times!' If the evil demon is a possibility, is there anything which is beyond doubt?"
(2:10:35 AM) an arbitrary limit: that's cute
(2:10:51 AM) an arbitrary limit: and brings a good point
(2:11:09 AM) an arbitrary limit: but we've already progressed past that obstacle
(2:11:26 AM) an arbitrary limit: there exists nothing without doubt, however faith is essential to progress
(2:11:45 AM) an arbitrary limit: we won't get anywhere if we don't make assumptions, however ungrounded in true reality our assumptions are
(2:12:07 AM) raptwit: then what difference does it make if our perceptions are, in fact, reliable or not?
(2:12:21 AM) an arbitrary limit: how close we are to true reality
(2:12:26 AM) an arbitrary limit: if in fact a true reality exists
(2:12:33 AM) raptwit: there is no way to tell
(2:12:40 AM) an arbitrary limit: one must assume
(2:12:42 AM) an arbitrary limit: and work from there
(2:12:46 AM) an arbitrary limit: like i said before
(2:12:55 AM) an arbitrary limit: if under your current assumption an error is located
(2:13:00 AM) an arbitrary limit: your assumption is folly
(2:13:18 AM) an arbitrary limit: and you must, you simply must strike it, and start again
(2:13:53 AM) an arbitrary limit: that is the principle upon which a scientific theory is based
(2:14:08 AM) an arbitrary limit: assume the theory is true; if it is true, then it will make certain predictions; those predictions are tested
(2:14:15 AM) an arbitrary limit: if the predictions match the test results
(2:14:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: the theory is confirmed
(2:14:21 AM) an arbitrary limit: if not, it must be stricken
(2:14:26 AM) an arbitrary limit: and re-created
(2:14:42 AM) an arbitrary limit: of course all within the framework of logic and emotion
(2:14:43 AM) an arbitrary limit: faith and reason
(2:14:49 AM) an arbitrary limit: which i am forced to assume is true and reliable
(2:14:55 AM) an arbitrary limit: since for me there is no other
(2:15:05 AM) an arbitrary limit: no thought without the reality that i have constructed out of those two principles
(2:15:36 AM) raptwit: I really don't understand where you're going with this
(2:15:45 AM) an arbitrary limit: i don't think i'm going anywhere
(2:15:52 AM) raptwit: o
(2:16:01 AM) an arbitrary limit: i'm going where it will take me
(2:16:16 AM) raptwit: this particular road just keeps winding on and twisting back, I think
(2:16:27 AM) an arbitrary limit: no i think i've reached its end
(2:16:45 AM) an arbitrary limit: you're forced to assume
(2:16:59 AM) an arbitrary limit: sigh
(2:17:12 AM) raptwit: being forced to assume sucks
(2:17:13 AM) an arbitrary limit: why can't people just be told the truth from the beginning
(2:17:16 AM) an arbitrary limit: i know
(2:17:19 AM) an arbitrary limit: but people make so many...
(2:17:19 AM) raptwit: that would make things too easy
(2:17:22 AM) an arbitrary limit: it's just so horrible
(2:17:32 AM) an arbitrary limit: yeah haha
(2:17:34 AM) an arbitrary limit: too easy indeed
(2:17:48 AM) an arbitrary limit: why couldn't people have been told that there is no god
(2:17:51 AM) an arbitrary limit: that perceptions are unreliable
(2:18:00 AM) an arbitrary limit: that they are essentially other people
(2:18:10 AM) an arbitrary limit: and that society, morality and values
(2:18:13 AM) an arbitrary limit: aren't a divine mandate
(2:18:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: but response to economic forces
(2:18:26 AM) raptwit: you are describing utopia
(2:18:28 AM) an arbitrary limit: and allow people to live as is most natural
(2:18:31 AM) an arbitrary limit: the truth
(2:18:36 AM) an arbitrary limit: or as close to truth as we can exist
(2:18:55 AM) an arbitrary limit: instead of some... impossibly insane fairy tale
(2:19:06 AM) an arbitrary limit: to manipulate people into doing what they do
(2:19:18 AM) an arbitrary limit: at least in one the illusion of free will really is an illusion
(2:19:32 AM) an arbitrary limit: utpoia indeed
(2:20:30 AM) an arbitrary limit: all of our ideas and concepts are just a series of arbitrary limits imposed upon us by those who thought they knew or were doing best
(2:22:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: i want a boyfriend to distract me from reality
(2:22:24 AM) an arbitrary limit: and to lie to me and tell me it's alright
(2:22:35 AM) raptwit: who's to say that it's alright or isn't?
(2:22:46 AM) raptwit: arrogant assumptions perpetrated by arrogant individuals
(2:22:53 AM) an arbitrary limit: i don't think it's alright
(2:23:06 AM) an arbitrary limit: but it's my indoctrination at odds with my revelations
(2:23:13 AM) an arbitrary limit: waging a war that no side can win
(2:23:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: i cannot vanquish one or the other
(2:23:21 AM) an arbitrary limit: ideas are eternal
(2:23:32 AM) an arbitrary limit: unless you kill the person who harbors them
(2:24:02 AM) an arbitrary limit: auauhghghg
(2:24:17 AM) an arbitrary limit: i hate being retardedly complex
(2:24:19 AM) an arbitrary limit: fuck complexity