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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:20] <DiffyQ> Sorry, I'm not for sale.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:21] <pascoe> mobic: there aren't conditions in the sense of earning it, if that is what you mean. it comes to us freely, but it obligates us in the process. the blessings come with obligations, just like a marriage comes with obligations to one's spouse.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:28] <Raven`X> if you buy into the whole resurection thing
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:29] Mode Channel modes: moderated, topic protection, no messages from outside, R, limited to 51 users
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:29] Created This channel was created on 04/14/2007 10:01:30 AM.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:41] <mobic> pascoe it would be like i paid your morgage whether you wanted me or not.. and then expected you to beholding to me
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:37:42] Notice -Atomizer- Visit our website at 4http://www.sciencechatforum.com
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:38:00] <pascoe> mobic: yes. it's just like that.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:38:10] <DiffyQ> It's like Tom Nook in Animal Crossing. Hey, I just added a second floor to your house. That'll be 10,000 bells.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:38:17] <DiffyQ> Or am I the only one who played that game?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:38:23] <mobic> pascoe again im sorry about that for you
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:38:39] <pascoe> mobic: I'm sorry that you are sorry, since I'm not. 8)
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:01] <mobic> pascoe... well paying the morgage one's self is a good thing
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:03] <pascoe> mobic: you might as well pretend to be sorry for married people because the blessings of marriage come with obligations and reponsibilities.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:16] <DiffyQ> Didn't they choose to get married?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:23] <mobic> pascoe marriage is of choice
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:29] <makor> you do not work at a marrige it does not work
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:34] <mobic> the consequences of it are expected
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:41] <DiffyQ> And if they were coerced, then yes, I would feel sorry for them.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:39:48] <pascoe> mobic: the debt we owe is our lives. the wage of sin is death. you can pay this yourself if you wish. but I prefer to die in Christ, so that I may live in Him also.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:40:07] <mobic> pascoe i didnt ask him to pay my morgage
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:40:52] <mobic> pascoe i took on the morgage understanding the consequences
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:40:57] <Grey_Fox> hi
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:40:59] <DiffyQ> Hey, Grey_Fox. You're in the next Super Smash Bros. game, did you hear?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:41:04] <Grey_Fox> lol
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:41:08] <pascoe> mobic: He died for His people. I don't have access to His covenant book of life to see if you are in it.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:41:17] <DiffyQ> http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/items/assist/assist11.html Yay!
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:41:30] <Grey_Fox> :D
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:41:48] <DiffyQ> I never played the Metal Gear games myself, but I've heard nothing but good things about them.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:42:00] <Grey_Fox> they're awesome
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:42:06] <Grey_Fox> hi pascoe
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:42:12] <Grey_Fox> congrats on your OP getting
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:42:22] <bnyfoofoo> wb Grey_Fox
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:42:28] <Grey_Fox> thanks
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:43:18] <makor> what did Christ do then mobic+ ? In your understanding.?
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:43:37] <mobic> makor i see it as he gave a formula in how to live
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:43:49] <Raven`X> he said some stuff, pretty radical stuff for the time, he angered the wrong people and got crucified as a result
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:43:50] <PaperCup> DiffyQ: A really good game is coming out next years called: Frontline: fuel of war
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:43:58] <DiffyQ> I don't know about mobic, but I think Jesus lived two thousand years ago, said some influential stuff, and then died.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:43:59] <mobic> how to live with others... how to make the kingdom actually happen
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:00] <Grey_Fox> hi PaperCup
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:14] <PaperCup> hi
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:25] <DiffyQ> PaperCup: Is that in the Metal Gear series?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:31] <PaperCup> no
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:36] <makor> mobic+ you seem to miss the atonment thing
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:39] <DiffyQ> Oh, okay. I thought that was why you brought it up..
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:50] <PaperCup> I was comparing
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:52] <DiffyQ> Ah.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:53] <makor> you might like to read paul speaking about it,
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:44:58] <mobic> makor recite the lords prayer... the atonement is with in that
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:45:01] <DiffyQ> I've only heard the name. I don't know anything about it.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:45:27] <mobic> you are forgvien as you forgive others
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:46:01] <makor> mobic+ no argument, however Jesus mission was more profound than some teacher spreading a moral.
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:46:32] <makor> the depth of his mission is not contained in the lords prayer, the lords prayer is simply a format for prayer,and a good one
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:46:38] <mobic> makor for some... i dont
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:47:12] <mobic> makor it also shows how you can asked to be forgivened
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:47:20] <mobic> as you forgive others
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:47:42] <mobic> its alledged to be right from him...
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:48:16] <pascoe> makor: that was a mistake that Ozymandias made earlier. he was evaluating Christianity as some sort of moralist, and concluding that Christianity had nothing original to offer. but he had to ignore any moral principles that are tied to God directly (such as no other gods before Him). and he had to ignore the point of Christianity, which is Christ, and not moralisms.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:48:51] <mobic> it doesnt the love commandments existed already
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[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:49:46] <makor> mobic+ a man can come to your house and fix your flying machine and give you a run down on what to do to keep it in the air,? is that the whole story of this mans mission? If this man also invented flying and made the flying machine, does it do him justice to say his sole mission is in topping up oil and Plane maintianance
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:50:00] <makor> Thats an analogy mobic+ , not the best one but
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:50:13] <Hapax_Legomenon> anyone ever actually meet god?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:50:46] <mobic> makor if this man came to fix my machine its because i called him to do so... then a contract is made and i am willing to pay his wages and parts
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:51:19] <makor> pascoe i saw that, but that ozemandias, never claime dot be christian, Mobic does and though im not judging his comittment, Im wondering why the main part of Jesus mission seems to be opposed by him ?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:51:36] <pascoe> mobic claims to be a Christian? when did this happen? 8)
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:00] <makor> pascoe ask him
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:10] <pascoe> mobic: do you claim to be a Christian?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:15] <mobic> makor is making things up
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:22] <makor> im not
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:26] <makor> tripper
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:31] <pascoe> mobic: do you claim to be a Christian?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:39] <Hapax_Legomenon> most religious people make things up. makes them feel better
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:45] <mobic> pascoe... i dont make any claims other then being theistic
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:52:48] <Hapax_Legomenon> apparently...
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:02] <pascoe> mobic: so you worship a generic god? 8)
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:09] <makor> your full of it mobic+ ,. you afirmed countless times that you were a christian to me
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:10] <Hapax_Legomenon> mobic: what makes you think there is a deity of some kind?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:12] <pascoe> you don't go for the name brands? 8)
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:15] <mobic> pascoe like yours?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:24] <pascoe> mobic: my God has a name.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:30] <mobic> pascoe and brands get what?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:51] <pascoe> generic gods tend to be pretty silent. what has yours ever said?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:53:52] <mobic> i see alot of conflict with branding
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:54:04] <Raven`X> what is your God's name?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:54:19] <pascoe> Raven`X: YHWH.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:54:25] <mobic> pascoe i dont know if God has said anything.... there is claims that he has... but they conflict
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:54:31] <Raven`X> what about elohim?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:54:52] <pascoe> Raven`X: that's a generic term, like the term "God" itself.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:55:09] <Hapax_Legomenon> brand name gods tend to talk a whole lot .... via zealous people who write and speak in the name of god. sort of circular, don't you think? I mean, "I am saying what god has told me to say and the proof of god's existence is that I am saying them." Wow. Gotta be pretty dumb to go for that, eh?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:55:40] <pascoe> Hapax_Legomenon: you need to turn down the insults a few notches. thanks.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:55:47] <mobic> Hapax_Legomenon i have a hope of one... as being the varifier, the possible source of answer to the whys of all this...
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:55:55] <Hapax_Legomenon> wasn't aware I was insulting anyone. but ok
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:55:58] <EmmettM> now how it works hap
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:56:09] <EmmettM> not how it works
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:56:27] <Raven`X> doesn't ywhw mean "he causes to be"?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:56:27] <Hapax_Legomenon> mobic: hope is nice. facts are not dependent upon hope.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:56:41] <EmmettM> you obviously never met God or had Him speak to you
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:56:55] <Hapax_Legomenon> EmmettM: no. that's why I wondered if anyone had
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:03] <Hapax_Legomenon> above...my first post
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:06] <Hapax_Legomenon> :)
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:22] <Grey_Fox> why would you hope for something that can kill you?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:22] <Hapax_Legomenon> EmmettM: ever meet god?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:26] <mobic> Hapax_Legomenon agreed.... but i donot like the nihilistic ending of all this with out an infinite varifier
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:32] <Hapax_Legomenon> Grey_Fox: good point
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:35] <EmmettM> haven't been paying attention until just now
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:39] <EmmettM> and yes i have
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:41] <Grey_Fox> mobic: that's in the future
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:49] <Grey_Fox> like, way, way in to the future
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:57:58] <Grey_Fox> like, billions of years
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:00] <mobic> Grey_Fox so?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:01] <Hapax_Legomenon> mobic: nothing nihilistic about it. life is what it is and that is plenty wonderful just as it is without all the supernatural trappings.
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:01] <pascoe> ACTS 17:23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. -NASB
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:04] <mobic> it will happen
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:06] <pascoe> ACTS 17:23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. -NASB
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:07] <pascoe> ACTS 17:24 "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; -NASB
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:11] <Grey_Fox> so it has no bearing on the here and now
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:58:25] <Grey_Fox> you won't see it, neither will I
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:14] <Hapax_Legomenon> old things pass away, new ones are born. such is nature. why isn't that enough for the religious types?
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:14] <Grey_Fox> besides, christianity predicts an end of the world too
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:26] <mobic> Grey_Fox the bearing is that it makes this only an illusion of one that will soon be lost...
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:35] <Hapax_Legomenon> why must they see "nihilism" in that? very puzzling...
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:40] <Grey_Fox> mobic: it's not an illusion, it's just impermanent
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:54] <Grey_Fox> you have to know, not fear, know that someday you're gonna die
[Tue Nov 6 2007] [23:59:59] <mobic> Grey_Fox right tell me that after you're dead
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:07] <Grey_Fox> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:14] * Grey_Fox forces mobic to watch fight club
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:20] <mobic> oh right you wont know you ever lived
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:21] <Hapax_Legomenon> mobic: dead = the end.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:48] <Raven`X> the kama sutra was written two thousand years ago, wow
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:53] <Grey_Fox> http://xkcd.com/167/
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:00:57] <mobic> hapax the state of nihility...
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:01:10] <Grey_Fox> mobic: read the comic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:01:16] <Grey_Fox> it's funny
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:01:30] <Hapax_Legomenon> mobic: nothing nihilistic about it. there will still be lots o' people around after we are gone, as well as many other kinds of life.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:01:49] <mobic> Hapax_Legomenon and when they are all gone?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:01:51] <pome> morning all
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:01] <Hapax_Legomenon> hallo
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:03] <makor> Death is nut the quenching of the candel flamw when dawn has come "
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:06] <Grey_Fox> mobic: why are you focusing on the end?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:13] <makor> nut /but
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:16] <Hapax_Legomenon> makor: death is the end of a particular life. that's all/
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:17] <mobic> Grey_Fox cause i am near ir
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:19] <Grey_Fox> haven't you heard the expression "life is a journey, not a destination"
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:21] <mobic> it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:31] <Grey_Fox> mobic: you're not near the end of the world
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:02:52] <mobic> Grey_Fox and i've enjoyed the journey
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:03:30] <mobic> Grey_Fox when one is dead there is no more world.. for them... you wont even know there was one...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:03:33] <makor> the world can end anytime,
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:03:48] <Grey_Fox> mobic: yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:03:54] <Grey_Fox> I don't want to die either
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:04:17] <Grey_Fox> but hell, it's better than eternal torture
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:04:35] <Hapax_Legomenon> no one wants to die. but it happens. that's why it's so important to live to the fullest while you are alive.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:04:42] <mobic> Grey_Fox so if there is any reality to all this there really needs to be a continuing sentience
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:04:55] <Grey_Fox> mobic: you're confusing perception with reality
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:05:17] <mobic> Grey_Fox with out sentience there is no knowledge of reality
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:05:31] <Hapax_Legomenon> but reality itself still exists
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:05:37] <Grey_Fox> yeah
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:05:48] <mobic> Hapax_Legomenon it would be unkown
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:05:58] <Hapax_Legomenon> that is a problem for us, not for reality
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:05:59] <Grey_Fox> that doesn't mean it's nothing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:06:10] <mobic> Hapax_Legomenon you wouldnt know
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:06:20] <mobic> Grey_Fox you would not know
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:06:34] <Grey_Fox> mobic: well, right now, I don't know if god exists
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:06:41] <Grey_Fox> so, god is nothing?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:07:05] <Hapax_Legomenon> not after death, I wouldn't. but I have ample evidence that reality continues to exist even while I am not perceiving it. While I'm asleep, for example. While I'm focused on doing something (like work), for another.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:07:07] <mobic> Grey_Fox neither do i... but an infinite sentience would keep that knowing of reality alive
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:07:37] <Grey_Fox> mobic: but reality doesn't need to be known
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:07:41] <mobic> Grey_Fox it may not be one infinite being... but a continuation of sentience
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:07:53] <Grey_Fox> mobic: seems more likely
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:07:58] <mobic> dotn even have to be my sentience...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:08:05] <Hapax_Legomenon> outta here.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:08:11] <Grey_Fox> 'cause we have had a continuation of sentience for quite a few thousand years
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:08:16] <Grey_Fox> so, we know it's possible
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:08:23] <mobic> but as long as sentience continues so does the knowledge of reality
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:08:31] <Grey_Fox> mmhmm
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:08:35] <Grey_Fox> however skewed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:09:15] <mobic> cant know about reality existing if there isnt any sentience...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:09:37] <Grey_Fox> well, you also can't know about it if you're dead
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:09:41] <Grey_Fox> i.e. not sentient
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:09:58] <mobic> Grey_Fox and if all sentience is dead nothing is known
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:10:13] <Grey_Fox> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:10:59] <mobic> Grey_Fox so my hope is that sentience is continuous... be it a God or continuence of sentience itself
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:11:10] <Grey_Fox> mobic: and if it isn't?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:11:37] <mobic> Grey_Fox then it absurdly ends in the state of nihility
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:11:48] <Grey_Fox> mobic: what if there's a gap
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:11:50] <Grey_Fox> say
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:12:13] <Grey_Fox> everyone goes in to suspended animation for 50 years
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:12:21] <mobic> Grey_Fox what gap? you sound like a religious person now
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:12:30] <Grey_Fox> mobic: a gap in the continuance
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:12:36] <Grey_Fox> a break
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:12:45] <mobic> what gap is that?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:01] <Grey_Fox> for a period of time, there's no sentience
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:19] <mobic> oh like a gestation period?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:27] <Grey_Fox> if you like
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:32] <mobic> like laid egg with the parent is gone?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:37] <Grey_Fox> sure
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:47] <mobic> then there is continuence
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:56] <pascoe> "Theocratic government is not only appealing to those who can follow a theological argument, those who understand that unless there is a transcendent authority over the state, then the state becomes the transcendent authority -- if there is no God over the state, then the state is god.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:56] <Grey_Fox> but there's no sentience
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:13:58] <pascoe> But theocratic government is also attractive to headstrong sectarians. If you set up a government in the name of Jesus, you will not just get Patrick Henry -- you will also get the Rev. Samuel "Sabbatarian" Gradgrind, along with proposed legislation to ban the tossing of frisbees on the Lord's Day."
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:14:13] <mobic> hope that our future sentient heirs lay that egg
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:14:25] <Grey_Fox> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:14:33] <Grey_Fox> personally, I'm shooting for a robocracy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:14:50] <mobic> theocratic governement?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:14:57] * Grey_Fox tosses a frisbee at pascoe
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:15:14] <mobic> why would there be a need for a Goverment if Jesus does return?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:15:50] <mobic> what courst systems woudl be needed for disputes?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:15:53] <pascoe> REVELATION 21:23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp {is} the Lamb. -NASB
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:15:54] <pascoe> REVELATION 21:24 And the nations shall walk by its light, and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it. -NASB
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:16:23] <mobic> that doesnt answer the question...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:16:32] <Grey_Fox> pascoe: do you expect the spanish inquisition?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:16:51] <pascoe> no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:16:55] <Grey_Fox> :D
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:16:56] <Raven`X> no one expects the spanish inquisition!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:17:10] <Grey_Fox> bring me, the comfy chair!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:17:12] <pascoe> REVELATION 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become {the kingdom} of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." -NASB
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:17:30] <pascoe> PSALMS 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth. -NASB
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:17:30] <mobic> thats what was needed to protect a theocracy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:17:31] <pascoe> PSALMS 2:12 Do homage to the Son, lest He become angry, and you perish {in} the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! -NASB
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:17:39] <mobic> inquistions
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:18:54] <Grey_Fox> pascoe: have you tended to the poor, hungry and sick?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:19:13] <pascoe> not all of them.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:19:45] <Grey_Fox> how many?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:20:04] <pascoe> what is this, the Spanish Inquisition?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:20:11] <Grey_Fox> yes
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:20:20] <Grey_Fox> theocracy inaction
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:20:36] <mobic> Grey_Fox dont get me wrong i have an apreciation for atheism... i really believe its a check and balance thing... thus i see you more as a diverse helpful perspective
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:20:44] <Grey_Fox> cool
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:20:59] <Grey_Fox> well mobic I'm always willing to play devil's advocate
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:05] <pascoe> devil's advocate? 8)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:15] <mobic> it stops this idea that theocracy is the answser
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:26] <pascoe> theocracy isn't even avoidable.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:30] <Grey_Fox> sure it is
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:35] <pascoe> it's only a question of which god.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:37] <Grey_Fox> I don't live in a theocracy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:43] <mobic> pascoe the real meaning to that... and not the nemesis of God
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:21:55] <Grey_Fox> oh pascoe's just playing dumb
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:22:54] <mobic> theocracy is a disaster always has been... there is always someone that claims God is talking only to them and they lead...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:02] <pascoe> theocracy isn't even avoidable.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:16] * Shirakawasuna shall win via repetition
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:21] <Shirakawasuna> theocracy isn't even unavoidable
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:28] <Grey_Fox> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:34] <pascoe> it's only a question of which god.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:45] <mobic> its all the same one...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:46] <Grey_Fox> pascoe: it's called ad nauseum for a reason
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:55] <Shirakawasuna> aha! A cutting rebuke!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:23:57] <Shirakawasuna> theocracy isn't even unavoidable
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:11] <Grey_Fox> nuh-uh!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:16] <pascoe> some of us "understand that unless there is a transcendent authority over the state, then the state becomes the transcendent authority -- if there is no God over the state, then the state is god."
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:17] <Grey_Fox> ya-huh!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:20] <Grey_Fox> nuh-uh!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:24] <mobic> any one want to see shiva in the flesh?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:28] <Shirakawasuna> I deny you any content!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:29] <Shirakawasuna> theocracy isn't even unavoidable
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:29] <mobic> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071107/ap_on_he_me/india_eight_limbs;_ylt=AvsfDgxqyuQwXGGMtOJFFXus0NUE
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:43] <Elduran-afk> What a load of rubbish. The state is NOT god
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:52] <Grey_Fox> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:24:59] <Elduran-afk> In fact, that claim is just plain ridiculous
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:04] <Grey_Fox> Elduran-afk: accept the state as your personal saviour
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:10] <Grey_Fox> only through the state will you find salvation
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:11] <pascoe> I guess I've struck a nerve.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:14] <Grey_Fox> praise the state
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:28] <pascoe> the nanny state is god.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:32] <Shirakawasuna> how can a state be transcendant *without* religion?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:33] <pascoe> there is no higher appeal.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:34] <Grey_Fox> thou shalt not have no other states before me
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:38] <Shirakawasuna> that'd be at the very least a misnomer
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:45] <Grey_Fox> pascoe: what about the international court?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:25:53] <Grey_Fox> or, say, the constitution
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:26:21] <Shirakawasuna> so religion is now accepted as a power structure?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:26:35] <Grey_Fox> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:26:41] <Grey_Fox> that's why religion has debate over laws
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:26:41] <Shirakawasuna> apparently abusive governments substituted in place?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:26:44] <Grey_Fox> and referendums
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:26:59] <Grey_Fox> and 5-4 decisions from supreme court justices
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:03] <pascoe> Grey_Fox: I think you are beginning to understand. answer your own question about whether the Constitution holds sway over the current god. the Constitution is just that elderly queen they trott out on the balcony to make an appearance and then shuffle her back to bed.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:17] <Grey_Fox> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:33] <mobic> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:35] <Elduran-afk> pascoe: it's not so much that ypou've struck a nerve, rather you're claiming something that I interpret as being incredibly wrong
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:36] <Shirakawasuna> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:41] <Grey_Fox> well exam time
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:43] <Grey_Fox> cya later
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:27:48] <Elduran-afk> A state simply is not a god without redefining the terms
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:28:05] <mobic> laters Grey_Fox
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:28:05] <Shirakawasuna> Elduran-afk: hmm, that'd be the second time he's tried that recently, then ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:28:26] <Elduran-afk> Shirakawasuna: seems to be a fairly common tactic of late
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:28:41] <Shirakawasuna> Elduran-afk: yesterday/a couple days ago, he argued that having a partner prior to your current spouse was infidelity.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:29:02] <Shirakawasuna> high school girlfriend? Yeah, you just cheated on your future wife ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:29:13] <pascoe> yep.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:29:14] <Elduran-afk> Why am I saying "of late"...? Creation "scientists" have been trying to redefine things for years, why is it anything new to try it with other definitions ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:29:37] <Shirakawasuna> apparently now God is just an authority like any other, and government is the only usurpring authority of moral commands...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:29:49] <Elduran-afk> Guess this is a new definition of cheating then. I've never cheated on anyone, and I have had 5 or 6 medium/long-term girlfriends
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:29:53] <glk4> Creation is religion
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:30:11] <Shirakawasuna> Elduran-afk: It's lying, plain and simple, to redefine terms to cause confusion.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:30:38] <mobic> Shirakawasuna dont have that partner die and then you get remarried.. your infedility will show
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:30:42] <Shirakawasuna> Elduran-afk: if you want to change a meaning so much and your goal is to communicate your ideas, you might as well skip using the word entirely and substitute your definition.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:31:11] * Shirakawasuna blushes and covers his infidelity
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:31:56] <mobic> figurine leaves anyone?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:32:22] * Shirakawasuna shows restraint by not making crude fig leaf jokes
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:33:29] <Shirakawasuna> so, any creationinsts/noncreationists confused about some evolutionary junk/hate it? I know that horse has been flogged pretty well, but for some reason I still find it entertaining and occasionally fulfilling.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:33:56] <Elduran-afk> Shirakawasuna: you missed the great claim last night that creation "scientists" actually do science ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:34:13] <Shirakawasuna> ooh, nice
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:34:14] <mobic> ick
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:34:28] <Shirakawasuna> did you start by giving some common prerequisites of something being a science?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:34:38] <mobic> the only thing i see them do is find fault with evolution...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:34:58] <glk4> Each geological period evolved different species over millions of years. Genetic continuity is a law of nature.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:34:59] <mobic> there is never a model that is posted
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:35:19] <Shirakawasuna> predictions, experiments, confirmations, peer review, falsifiability...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:35:22] <Elduran-afk> Shirakawasuna: no, I just asked for any articles that backed up creation. Was presented with a whole lot of nothing, and a huge long document by AiG claiming that the flood caused geology as we know it! ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:35:24] <pascoe> Steve Austin is one example. he did research at Mt St Helens.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:36:03] <Shirakawasuna> Elduran-afk: nice. So creation science is a ministry?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:36:29] <glk4> Mt St Helens spread ash. Ash erodes rapidly
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:36:34] <mobic> stEVE AUSTIN bearly survived from mt st helens but he was put back together , better then he was... they had the technology
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:36:36] <Elduran-afk> Shirakawasuna: basically yes. It's nothing but a criticism of real science with a religious pre-supposition
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:37:15] <Shirakawasuna> hey, let's see what journals steven a. austin is in.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:38:31] <bryan_adams> !kjv 1ti 6:20
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:38:33] <BibleBot> 1Tim6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: (KJV)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:39:02] * Shirakawasuna pops open georef
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:39:33] <mobic> is 1tim6:20 the licence to be false about science?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:41:48] <mobic> license
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:42:19] <Sara_Ks> Its a license to question bad science
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:42:40] <mobic> Sara_Ks and what is bad science?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:43:01] <pascoe> claims that aren't reproducibly observable.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:43:14] <mobic> something that post no model? soemthing that cant be falsifiable?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:43:25] <pascoe> like evolutionism.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:43:26] <Elduran-afk> mobic: anything published by AiG ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:44:13] <kandzif> Hello
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:44:29] <mobic> pascoe you can observe and test and reverify all the tests that support evolution
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:44:31] <Sara_Ks> mobic Something that can't be justifide under a reasonable method
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:44:44] <Elduran-afk> Evolution is directly observable, posts a model and makes falsifiable claims. Guess pascoe couldn't have been more wrong on that one
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:02] <Sara_Ks> Reasonable method meaning one that can produce a result we can rely on
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:04] <Elduran-afk> mobic:: I have to leave to go to work now, keep up the good work ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:22] <mobic> Elduran-afk enjoy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:29] <Shirakawasuna> weird
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:29] <Elduran-afk> unlikely, but thanks
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:38] <Shirakawasuna> GeoRef catalogues "Origins"
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:45:42] <pascoe> mobic: how do you repeatably observe the evolution of a flagella?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:46:01] <pascoe> Elduran-afk: how do you repeatably observe the evolution of a flagella?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:46:10] <Elduran-afk> before I go: pascoe: how can we repeatedly observe the building of the Tower of Piza?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:46:27] <Sara_Ks> follow the cheese
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:46:37] <pascoe> you can't. which is why that question is the subject of history.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:46:57] <Elduran-afk> pascoe: And yet the fact that it was built is never questioned. Odd that
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:00] <Elduran-afk> Bye all
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:11] <kandzif> bye
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:16] <pascoe> Elduran-afk: so you are conceding that it's not science. ok.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:22] <pascoe> anyone else?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:25] <glk4> http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/design2/article.html
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:27] <pascoe> how do you repeatably observe the evolution of a flagella?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:37] <glk4> read the url
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:49] <pascoe> or better question: who has repeatably observed the evolution of a flagella?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:47:49] <mobic> pascoe and how does it refute evolution?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:19] <pascoe> mobic: I'm simply demonstrating my point about what some people swallow as if it were science when it isn't.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:23] <Sara_Ks> glk4 Your URL has nothing to do with this topic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:26] <mobic> pascoe what replaces the theory?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:26] <pascoe> the subject was bad science.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:40] <mobic> pascoe what is in replacement?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:41] <glk4> It is about the flagellum
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:48:42] <pascoe> mobic: so you are conceding that it isn't science?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:49:06] <mobic> pascoe? im asking what replaces evolution for flagella?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:49:11] <Sara_Ks> glk4 Yes, but not about what is being discussed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:49:44] <pascoe> mobic: I know you are. but you are changing the subject.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:49:58] <pascoe> I assume that means you conceed my point.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:50:10] <pascoe> concede
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:50:53] <mobic> pascoe no im asking what replaces evolution for the existance of flagella? it it was not for that... how did it occur what was the process?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:50:56] <pascoe> what really helps is to be able to distinguish what is science from what isn't. that's a really big part of the problem in the evolution/creation controversy.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:51:14] <mobic> pascoe you assume wrongly
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:51:25] <Sara_Ks> Its bad science to claim evolution is demonstrated by repeatability. Not all science requires repeatability and anyone who claims it does is guilty of bad science
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:51:31] <mobic> you cannot replace it with a model thus it still stands
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:51:42] <pascoe> science requires repeatability.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:51:59] <Sara_Ks> mobic It can be replaced with another model
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:01] <pascoe> which is why most of the claims of evolutionism fall outside of the realm of science.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:08] <mobic> Sara_Ks what model?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:12] <glk4> You can not repeat the Jurassic period
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:19] <pascoe> glk4: exactly.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:33] <Sara_Ks> mobic parallel generation for one
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:39] <mobic> meaning what?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:44] <glk4> The science community acceps evolution as valid science
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:48] <Sara_Ks> meaning what it says
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:52:50] <mobic> i never heard of it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:53:03] <mobic> i have no idea its meaning
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:53:03] <Sara_Ks> mobic Thats why you think there is only one model
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:53:22] <Sara_Ks> mobic There are several, all just as good
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:53:26] <glk4> You can not repeat the formation of the solar system
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:53:43] <mobic> Sara_Ks what evidence for parallel generation (waht ever that means ) exist?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:54:01] <glk4> Each geological period evolved different species over millions of years. Genetic continuity is a law of nature.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:54:14] <pascoe> the "Jurassic period" is a historical model. a model of the past. and the past is not repeatable. some people are willing to extrapolate and put faith in histories based on evidences which are repeatable, but that doesn't make the historical model itself repeatable.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:54:41] <bryan_adams> glk4, genetic degradation is the law of thermodynamics
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:55:00] <Sara_Ks> mobic Parallel generation states that each species comes from a specific cell generation, that all species have a separate cell generation that progressed to the species that we see now
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:55:17] <glk4> Locally, energy can become concentrated
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:55:45] <Sara_Ks> mobic It states that the only commonality of species is in the method that the original cells were created
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:56:02] <glk4> There was only single cells 3.5 billion years ago
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:56:02] <mobic> Sara_Ks so evolution but on several lines
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:56:25] <mobic> all starting with single cells and working up from there
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:56:31] <Sara_Ks> mobic Simply decent with modification, we are different than our parents
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:00] <glk4> Geological Periods of the Earth.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:00] <glk4> Pre-Cambrian,(Archean, Proterozoic( Ediacaran Period),
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:00] <glk4> Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Mississippian,
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:00] <glk4> Pennsylvanian, Permian,/ Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous,/ Tertiary, Quaternary
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:02] <bryan_adams> glk4, no proof nor evidence
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:03] <mobic> Sara_Ks ah like all apes encluding humans having an anceint ancestor
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:28] <Sara_Ks> mobic Yes. Homosapiens came from a progression of modifications, but from a specific cell generation. No new species
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:32] <glk4> All life has ancestors since the first cells
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:43] <glk4> Each geological period evolved different species over millions of years. Genetic continuity is a law of nature.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:44] <pascoe> glk4: mind the mindless bot behavior please.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:46] <mobic> why zebra's and orse look alike and so on or all arachnids having eight apendages
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:57:51] <Sara_Ks> mobic Well, all having an original cell generation
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:58:30] <glk4> trilobites are the common ancestor of insects and spiders
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:58:34] <pascoe> glk4: last warning.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:58:39] <Sara_Ks> mobic Each came from a specific cell generation, yes but not a man from... etc
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:58:44] <mobic> Sara_Ks but the DNA show the relationship of common ancestry
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:59:24] <Sara_Ks> mobic It shows a relationship, which is based on the common creator. Each cell was created the same way
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:59:42] <glk4> No science has a creator
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [00:59:56] <mobic> which gives credence to evolution...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:00:12] <Sara_Ks> mobic Not as you have descriped it in the past
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:00:19] <Sara_Ks> described
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:00:37] <Sara_Ks> One species does not evolve into another
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:00:39] <mobic> Sara_Ks how is it i described it?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:00:39] <Shirakawasuna> cell generation?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:00:42] <Shirakawasuna> I've never heard that term
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:01:06] <mobic> Sara_Ks i see it happening with dogs
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:01:21] <Sara_Ks> The beginning of each species dates to its particular original cell
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:01:23] <mobic> the great dane and the chijuajua
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:01:46] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: what's this mumbo jumbo?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:01:47] <mobic> and its only been a few 10,000 yrs...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:01:48] <Shirakawasuna> making stuff up again?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:02:04] <Sara_Ks> mobic Time isn't the factor
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:02:31] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Are you?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:02:37] <mobic> Sara_Ks who says its not a factor... it seems to be a factor with every thing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:02:39] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: no?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:02:49] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Good
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:03:05] <Sara_Ks> mobic Not to this theory
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:03:24] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you make a lot of claims, and although I don't fully get it, what evidence do you have or predictions have you made for it?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:03:25] <mobic> Sara_Ks so what kind of time is being talked about?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:03:51] <Grey_Fox> hi
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:03:54] <mobic> wb Grey_Fox
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:00] <Grey_Fox> thx mobic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:02] <Sara_Ks> mobic Shirakawasuna can you show statistically how you relate the lineage of a given species to show evolution?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:16] <Grey_Fox> ok
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:18] <Sara_Ks> wb Grey_Fox
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:21] <Grey_Fox> DID YOU KNOW?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:37] <Grey_Fox> (A lack of evidence for one theory does not validate another)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:42] <Czolgosz> Hey Grey_Fox.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:43] <mobic> the mydochrodria of homosapiens to that of neandertals...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:44] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: phylogeny.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:46] <Grey_Fox> hi Czolgosz
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:49] * Grey_Fox hugs Czolgosz
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:04:57] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Show me the math you use
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:05:11] <Grey_Fox> let's debate!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:05:13] * Czolgosz smiles, amusedly, hugs Grey_Fox back.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:05:19] <Grey_Fox> :D
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:05:22] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I haven't personally done the math. Would you like some references and articles?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:05:32] <Grey_Fox> oh yeah, I got my mic fixed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:05:42] <mobic> the humans having only 8 diferences ...where as the neandertal has 26 .... making it not a direct line of decent but a distant cousin
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:06] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna I want to know how YOU can make the claim and how you support it, not how someone else does. I've read that, I know what they use and how they derive it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:21] <Sara_Ks> Which is the point here
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:31] <Grey_Fox> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:36] <Grey_Fox> Shirakawasuna: how dare you cite sources
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:42] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: well to start, I'm not creating my very own theory.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:47] <mobic> you still have not shown any support for your claim
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:48] <Grey_Fox> everyone knows the standard of evidence is whatever you make up
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:06:54] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox Hush, it isn't sources we need'
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:07:00] <mobic> and you wont...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:07:16] <Czolgosz> Hmmm. I wonder where I would have a mic. I really need to finish unpacking my room, it's been, like, a month.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:07:22] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: there's an entire science built around phylogeny...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:04] <Grey_Fox> Shirakawasuna: Proof that the square of the hypotenuse of a right angle is equal to the sum of the squares of the remaining two sides
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:17] <Grey_Fox> and don't uote me pythagoras, I need to know how YOU find it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:24] <Sara_Ks> mobic It isn't hard to support, the point is most here accept evolution but cannot support it, they say "Hey look at what joe says" but they don't understand what joe is actually saying
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:32] <Grey_Fox> Yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:38] <Grey_Fox> that's perfectly it Sara_Ks
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:41] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Ok, tell us about it, show us da math
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:51] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: prove demorgans law
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:08:57] <Grey_Fox> and don't quote demorgan
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:07] <Grey_Fox> I need to see your math
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:19] <Grey_Fox> this is how evidence works you see
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:23] <Grey_Fox> you can't share it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:36] <Shirakawasuna> Grey_Fox: I've proven it before, I actually forget how now ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:42] <Grey_Fox> find your mic Czolgosz
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:47] <Shirakawasuna> haven't done proofs in years
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:54] * Grey_Fox casts eagle eye on Czolgosz
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:55] <Shirakawasuna> darn backwards Rs
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:09:58] <Grey_Fox> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:04] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox falllacy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:12] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: show me the money?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:17] <Sara_Ks> But nice diversion
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:20] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: yes, the argument I said, is indeed, invalid
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:22] <Grey_Fox> and fallacious
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:26] <Grey_Fox> it's also similar to yours
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:32] <Grey_Fox> COINCIDENCE??? YOU DECIDE!
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:38] <Sara_Ks> Not at all your thinking is wrong
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:44] <Czolgosz> heh.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:47] <Sara_Ks> Bad example
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:10:51] <Grey_Fox> what example?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:01] <S|J_McPherson> hi Sara_Ks
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:19] <Sara_Ks> Your request, it is of a different nature, it doesnt apply, in other words its nonsense
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:28] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I'm thinking you are challening 'my' theory by demanding my own mathematical models? Like I said, I didn't make the theory up, but I can provide citations to peer-reviewed journals.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:30] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: my request isn't nonsense
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:41] <Grey_Fox> it's perfectly coherent
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:45] <Grey_Fox> Shirakawasuna: what did I request?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:46] <Shirakawasuna> gah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:51] <Shirakawasuna> Jstor's search is completely moronic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:56] <Grey_Fox> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:11:59] <Shirakawasuna> I can type in the title of an article *verbatim* and it doesn't find it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:00] <Grey_Fox> the point is Sara_Ks
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:04] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna No, I'm asking you to present your theory, showing the math you used to derive it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:05] <Grey_Fox> you can share evidence
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:13] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: Shirakawasuna doesn't have a theory
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:18] <Grey_Fox> he's not a professor
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:25] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox The point is you don't know what you are talking about
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:31] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: so?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:39] <Grey_Fox> that doesn't mean I'm wrong
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:45] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I don't have a theory. I kinda just said that.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:45] <Grey_Fox> all it means is that your job should be easy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:53] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I'm not the originator of phylogeny, sadly.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:55] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox But but he said 2[03:10] 01(Shirakawasuna01): Sara_Ks: I'm thinking you are challening 'my' theory by demanding my own mathematical models?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:12:58] <Shirakawasuna> if I was, I'd take a lot of credit for it.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:13:11] <Shirakawasuna> if you'd like, I can give you *citations*
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:13:17] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: do you know what scare quotes are?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:13:39] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox I'm not into your diversionary tactics, stop.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:13:41] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I really don't see your point, I"m only guessing because you aren't transparent with your questioning.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:13:52] <Sara_Ks> 'Sheesh, talk about cover ups
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:13:59] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: when I asked you for your evidence/some more information, I made it clear why I was doing so.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:14:23] <Shirakawasuna> apparently an ill-explained counterattack is your response. Thanks.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:15:12] <Sara_Ks> If you guys really understood evolution, you could easily address the question instead of diverting this into the Grey_Fox nonsense. Evolution is not based on generalisations, which is all you seem to be able to present, but on specifics.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:15:59] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna It ok to ask questions of me, but not to avoid answering mine
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:15:59] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I asked you to explain *your own* theory. It is yours, isn't it?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:16:10] <Shirakawasuna> I can give you citations for the one I find compelling.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:16:16] <Sara_Ks> No, it is a competing model
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:16:20] <Shirakawasuna> if I had made it up myself, I'd gladly explain every little thing.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:16:27] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Why are they compelling?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:16:37] <Sara_Ks> What is it about them that compells you?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:17:04] <Shirakawasuna> the results reported to me from scientists and in academic journals.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:17:14] <Sara_Ks> what results?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:17:19] <Sara_Ks> What do they say?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:18:14] <mobic> so Sara_Ks wants years of research and decades of evidence found to be shown?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:18:19] <Sara_Ks> Or are you using appeal to authority without first showing a foundation for it?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:18:29] <Sara_Ks> mobic No
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:18:36] <Shirakawasuna> "they" say many things, "they" produce models of evolutionary history and test them via various processes, the most recent, interesting, and powerful one being genetic analysis of living organisms.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:18:50] <Shirakawasuna> Taxonomy is being revolutionized by said processes.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:18:53] <Shirakawasuna> well
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:19:00] <Shirakawasuna> I suppose that's too strong a word ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:19:06] <Shirakawasuna> no Kingdoms are dying as a result.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:19:19] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna generalisation without foundation
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:19:53] <Sara_Ks> Nothing you have said, nothing you or mobic have presented argues your postion over the model I presented
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:19:57] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I asked you earlier if you wanted citations, instead you wanted me to do some math.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:20:00] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: do you want citations now?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:20:16] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Do you know why the math is important?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:20:21] <moot> hello
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:20:27] <Sara_Ks> Hi moot
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:20:43] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Do you know?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:01] <Pellin> Hi Moot.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:04] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Sheesh, ok, I will give you a hint
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:08] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: actually, I have no idea what you're getting at
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:19] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you're brow-beating a vague point that I choose not to guess at.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:25] <Shirakawasuna> "do you?"
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:47] <Pellin> Hi Supremebean.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:47] <Shirakawasuna> I'm guessing it's incredulity.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:52] <Shirakawasuna> so I lied ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:21:57] <supremebean> hi pellin
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:22:12] <Sara_Ks> All modern methods of demonstrating evolution come from a statistical basis. This includes protien and DNA squencing. Do you know what this is and how it is used?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:22:47] <Sara_Ks> Can you describe the process?
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:22:52] <Grey_Fox> hi
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:05] <Sara_Ks> We aren't here
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:10] <Sara_Ks> lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:10] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: not in very fine detail, no. That'll be in 3 years or so.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:11] <Grey_Fox> prove it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:24] <Grey_Fox> so
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:24] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I know what it is as it's reported to me.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:23:47] <Shirakawasuna> I know that many scientists use them to further molecular phylogeny and do real-world studies of organisms and how they evolve.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:24:03] <Shirakawasuna> to create new histories of evolution via phylogenetic trees.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:24:13] <Shirakawasuna> if you want to call it lacking a foundation again, I'll provide you some citations.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:24:41] <Grey_Fox> Shirakawasuna: how about your theories on demographics
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:24:49] <Grey_Fox> let me see the surveys you conducted
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:25:05] <Grey_Fox> never mind that you're repeating what other people have formulated, complete with data
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:25:05] <Shirakawasuna> you probably don't want them, though. You'd rather I understand genetics in-and-out before agreeing with scientists over guessing creationists.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:25:07] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Well, that is the point, so, let me elaborate for you. There are NO direct links from any one species to another. Pascoe is right, if you do it as you and mobic were talking, it isn't science, it is history. If you want to use science, you have to have a means to fill those gaps using a scientific method. Those gaps can be filled with sequencing. Are youwith me so far?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:25:15] <Grey_Fox> I need to see your mathematical models to take you seriously
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:25:55] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox Likely you don't understand them well enough
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:25:58] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: it depends on what you mean by species.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:13] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Ok man from ancestors
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:22] <moonweed> sits n the couch until he figures out the gist
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:32] <Sara_Ks> Birds from fish, it doesnt matter
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:32] <Grey_Fox> ancestors
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:35] <Grey_Fox> that's totally not vague
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:47] <Sara_Ks> Grey_Fox hush
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:52] <Grey_Fox> is that a threat?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:26:54] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: sexual speciation has been observed, iirc.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:27:12] <pascoe> it's worse than that. even if they had a repeatable experiment to convert mice into elephants, it wouldn't mean that it actually happened that way in history. the past can't be repeated. science is quite limited. all that it can provide is knowledge which is based on experiments that can be repeated. it doesn't prove things about history.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:27:33] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna you have to be careful what you claim is observed, there are several explanations
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:27:38] <Sara_Ks> but off the topic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:27:40] <PaperCup> Sara_Ks: can I speak to you in PM about college ?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:27:41] <moonweed> science is limited but "quite" limited"?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:27:47] <Sara_Ks> PaperCup Sure
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:05] <pascoe> severely limited. 8)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:12] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: oh, I'm sure you have many explanations for one population group no longer being able to have viable offspring with its earlier gene pool.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:23] <Shirakawasuna> like uh... God would have killed them?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:38] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna That is an assumption
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:51] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna But lets keep on topic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:52] <moonweed> science of ahtropology, archaeology, etc. are proven. sure they have theories... mostly unprovable save on a comparison to current norms but... it is science
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:28:56] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: that *is* on topic.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:29:13] <moonweed> and what they prove is valid. may not be true but a thing need not be true to be valid
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:29:15] <pascoe> science is a search for repeatable knowledge. which, unsurprisingly to most everyone except glk, explains why scientists aren't looking for miracles, because miracles are outside of the class of events that can be repeated by us.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:29:19] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you said there were no direct links from one species to another. The observation of sexual speciation divergence *is* a fairly direct link.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:29:37] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna No it isn't, the topic is how you determine that one species came from another and how you relate the gaps
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:29:51] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: right. Sexual species *are* species, you know.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:30:20] <mobic> and its been repeated over and over again thru many different disciplines that evolution is still the best model for the evidence at hand
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:30:21] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna again, it is about how you determine the cause of what you think you are seeing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:30:26] <mobic> nothing topples it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:30:28] <mobic> yet
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:30:56] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: it always is. Postulate an alternative theory for that situation.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:31:13] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Stay on topic. Can you see the point here? How you relate one species as being a generation from another.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:31:24] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: the observation is that a mutation caused members of a single gene pool to sexually diverge from the others - that is, they can no longer have viable offspring.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:31:50] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Explain what you observe
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:32:00] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: this *is* on topic. How is it not? This ideals with direct links between species.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:32:15] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: so I'd appreciate if you didn't tut-tut me incorrectly ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:32:23] <mobic> paleontology, geology, biology, anatomy, anthropology, all give evidence in support of evolution
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:32:24] <Sara_Ks> What is it you see that tells you it is an evolutionary process vs genetic ocillation?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:00] <moonweed> i cam eback and found so much to comment upon and ruminate over i shorted a few brain cells
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:03] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: genetic oscillation meaning...?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:05] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna I "Tut tut" when it is applicable
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:17] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: one of the populations would've definitely died?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:17] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna you have never heard the term?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:31] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: no. Google returns 28 hits.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:33:55] <Sara_Ks> Ok, NOW you have heard it
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:34:18] <Shirakawasuna> see what I mean about making things up? I find it hard to believe that you aren't just inventing terms and ideas when you expect someone to know a term that gets 28 google hits :).
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:34:35] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna It is a known principle
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:34:47] <Shirakawasuna> cite your sources, then. I've already said I'll gladly cite mine.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:34:56] <moonweed> inventing reality is human nature
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:02] <mobic> what does genetic oscillation meaning...?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:03] <mobic> [04:34] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna I "Tut tut" when it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:15] <moonweed> whether faith based, empirical, or just to satisfy an emotional need
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:30] <mobic> what does genetic ocilation have to do with refuting evolution?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:30] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna BTW, you are either lying or not able to use google or your browser is broken
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:37] <Shirakawasuna> so far most of google's results deal with circadian mechanisms.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:38] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Results 1 - 10 of about 1,470,000 for Genetic oscillation. (0.22 seconds
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:45] <Sara_Ks> 'google
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:49] <moonweed> google isn't all that
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:52] <Sara_Ks> I think you should appologise
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:35:58] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: the term isn't just "genetic or oscillation"
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:36:01] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22genetic+oscillation%22&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:36:13] <Shirakawasuna> jeeze
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:36:25] <moonweed> the effectiveness of google is squarely based on the querent
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:36:30] <Shirakawasuna> if it's a term, it'd be used as "genetic oscillation" in a google search.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:36:48] <moonweed> cut and paste notwithstanding... as it is but one facet of another's reality
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:37:03] <moonweed> a reality they sought out rather than formulating no less
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:37:31] <mobic> what does genetic ocilation have to do with refuting evolution?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:37:40] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna There are MANY papers on this, I'm looking at least 100 so far
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:37:49] <Shirakawasuna> moonweed: uh... if you're claiming something is a term, implying that it's somehow established, it'll probably come up in a google search.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:38:10] <moonweed> mobic, which evolutionary theory? darwin has been modified much, social darwinism is mostly a joke
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:38:27] <moonweed> and intelligent design is an apologist's stance
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:38:28] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: prove it.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:38:45] <Shirakawasuna> my incredulity seems to have been validated by a single google search.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:38:54] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna noise-resistance in genetic oscillations. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 99,. 5988-5992. Zak, D.E., Doyle III, F.J., Vlachos, D.C.,. and Schwaber, J.S. (2001). ...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:38:55] <pascoe> even if it wasn't an established term, it's pretty obvious what Sara_Ks is referring to. even if speciation occurs, it is possible for later offspring to be reproductively compatible where a parent generation wasn't.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:39:04] <mobic> moonweed just asking Sara_Ks how "genetic occilation" does any kind of refution of evolution
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:39:28] <moonweed> mobic, so it's about decontruction of another idea?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:39:40] <moonweed> deconstruction, even
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:39:44] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna It is in papers published by NAS, to claim I am making it up is insulting
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:39:46] <mobic> moonweed apparently... i get nothing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:40:03] <moonweed> mobic, then posit a refuting theory
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:40:06] <moonweed> ! :)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:40:12] <mobic> moonweed i dont have any
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:40:25] <mobic> im asking
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:40:43] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna On robustness of periodic trajectories in cireadian systems ...noise-resistance in genetic oscillations. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 99,. Zak, D.E., Doyle 111, F.J., Vlachos,. D.G..,. and Schwaber,. J.S. (2001). ...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:40:54] <moonweed> asking someone to prove a negative is like me asking you to prove i am not wearing plaid... i'm not... but you can't prove i am not
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:41:17] <mobic> moonweed what are you talking about?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:41:30] <moonweed> another apologist's stance, in a crude form.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:41:39] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I'm working on debunking, two secs
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:41:46] Part Grey_Fox has left this channel.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:41:56] <moonweed> prove god does not exist. it works on other levels and not just moral
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:42:26] <mobic> moonweed no one is talking that...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:42:35] <moonweed> as well, to debunk, there needs to be a common ground. an agrred upon set of rules and jargon
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:42:47] <Grey_Fox> Sara_Ks: what is genetic oscillation?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:42:55] <moonweed> otherwise, one can say black is white
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:43:32] <mobic> i;ve been asking that for a while, Grey_Fox
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:43:34] <moonweed> sorry mobic, my life is about seeing pattern and connection.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:43:41] <Grey_Fox> oh well
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:43:46] <moonweed> that's both down and up sides
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:43:48] <Grey_Fox> let's have our own debate mobic
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:43:54] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I'm pretty sure that has more to do with circadian rhythm (oscillations) than what you seem to be speaking of.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:05] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: problem is, none of the links load ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:17] <Grey_Fox> mobic: are you a theist?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:21] <moonweed> circadian rythym??? always comes about with the US time change lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:36] <Shirakawasuna> here we go
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:39] <moonweed> but are we certain that ties to genetic ocillations?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:43] <mobic> Grey_Fox yes more like a unitarian deist
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:45] Quit EmmettM has left this server (Client closed connection).
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:52] <Grey_Fox> deist eh?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:44:58] <mobic> if there is such a thing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:10] <Grey_Fox> mobic: could you elaborate on your religious beliefs?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:16] <moonweed> genetic ocillations seems to be an itellectual's phrase for evolution
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:18] <Sara_Ks> Well, it doesnt matter, the term means a change in allele frequency that returns to the original state. Changes due to environment for example
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:21] <Shirakawasuna> weird
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:24] <Shirakawasuna> link doesn't even mention doyle
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:25] <Grey_Fox> moonweed: they're not
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:27] <Shirakawasuna> it's all Japanese people
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:33] <moonweed> evolution is no ladder, just change and adaptation, or lack of
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:38] <Shirakawasuna> "In this paper, we study the robustness of circadian rhythms from the viewpoint of (local) robust stability of periodic trajectories."
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:45:50] Mode Sara_Ks takes the permission to talk from Grey_Fox.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:46:02] <moonweed> local eh?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:46:23] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: individuals or populations?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:46:38] <mobic> Grey_Fox i hope there is a connection of sentience of the past as well as the future and now that gives reasons of why sentience existance exist
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:46:44] <Sara_Ks> Populations.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:47:06] <moonweed> mobic there is only the now and what you experience. all else is either memory or speculation
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:47:12] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: can you give me a study where it's been shown in an isolated population, that is one with only the mutation?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:47:31] <mobic> moonweed thanx for dimissing the people of my past
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:47:50] <moonweed> mobic, you are welcome... note, i did not dismiss your memory of them
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:47:52] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: or is it oscillation in expression?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:48:07] <Shirakawasuna> (!allele frequency)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:48:11] <moonweed> memory is a powerful thing.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:48:50] <moonweed> it forms our "experience". as in the older one is the more experienced they are. however memory need not be true
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:49:06] <moonweed> yet it is one of the major shapers of an individual
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:50:32] <mobic> moonweed now you continue with inuendos to my recolectionsbeing false...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:50:38] <moonweed> it [memory] can also reinforce a personality as it shapes interpetations of current events, which in turn become other memories
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:50:51] <moonweed> mobic, not you specifically
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:50:54] <mobic> might as well not have these people of my past...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:51:37] <moonweed> those people in your past shaped who you are! why discount them? it matters not whether you recall them as they were or if it is nostalgia or nightmare or something in between.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:51:44] <moonweed> those memories make you unique
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:52:43] <makor> and falce memories?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:53:02] <moonweed> makor, sometimes. sometimes true, sometimes biased
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:53:04] <mobic> moonweed correct... i dont mind hoping to reconnect with them... as they were in their prime.. and not when they were at their worst
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:53:25] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: if you simply mean competition, I readily accept that :/
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:53:59] <moonweed> the most difficult way to forget something is by trying to forget it. everytime we remember we alter the memory slightly by mixing up our current thoughts
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:54:00] <Sara_Ks> http://ajpcell.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/274/2/C531
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:54:20] <moonweed> the same holds true for theories
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:55:31] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna It can include competiion, but only in the sense that evirionment could cause a change, for example you might have dogs with heavier coats develope if put in a cold climate, but they will thin out if returned to a warmer climate
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:55:32] <moonweed> soemthing can be said in the most dry and illustrative of words yet still be interpetted many ways. so is the now as it relates to memory.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:56:03] <moonweed> you culd also have short coated fat dogs
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:57:00] <moonweed> do not presume to now how evolution works because if that could be done then we could know what will supplant us
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:57:02] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna This is why they have gone to Sequencing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:57:19] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna They can track changes statisically
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:58:02] <mobic> more then likely the dog with the thick coats would perrish in the heat...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:58:15] <moonweed> sometimes when i hear modern takes on a new jerusalem (revelations) it sounds like people are hoping for a status quo
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:58:29] <moonweed> within their own community...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:01] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: that link deals with expression, not observed allele frequency. The link doesn't even mention allele
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:03] <moonweed> i have an opinion that many wish for a stasis
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:15] <mobic> moonweed ... some kind of continuence that enables the species to continue is an instinctive one, is it not?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:17] <moonweed> well, if they feel they have power that is
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:28] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Yes expression is what we are talking about
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:45] <moonweed> mobic, that is general to Life. life desires to procreate
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:53] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you hadn't mentionend it before. You said allele frequency.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [01:59:57] <Sara_Ks> How are changes expressed and how do we show it is evolutionary
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:10] <mobic> moonweed and there are lots of strategies to that end
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:11] <moonweed> life consumes life and breeds
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:15] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna It will show in the allele frequency
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:31] <Sara_Ks> You can look at it from that POV
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:42] <Sara_Ks> Or other points of view
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:45] <Shirakawasuna> uh... what?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:47] <moonweed> everything else is just a distraction
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:00:59] <Shirakawasuna> what is showing?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:01:31] <Sara_Ks> You can see the oscillations in the allele frequency
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:01:40] <moonweed> i have no kids, my genes have come to a dead end. i have a desire to breed and pass on the genes but... it's not that demanding
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:01:41] <mobic> like what distraction?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:01:46] <Sara_Ks> The key here, is what the topic was about, how do you determine this
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:01:49] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: uh, no. Look up allele frequency.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:01:50] <makor> How it got here,and why it is here are different topics.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:00] <Shirakawasuna> I'm not going to debunk any more of your bogus claims tonight
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:03] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna I know what it is, un so yes
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:05] <Shirakawasuna> so far every specific one has shown up to be false.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:09] <moonweed> mobic, like whyw e are here
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:15] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: expression is not allele frequency.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:15] <mobic> moonweed the strategy then it to be a cog in the wheel that enables the species to continue
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:43] <moonweed> mobic, in a way... as shakespear saud, all the world is a stage
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:44] <mobic> moonweed i dont see it as a distraction but and expression of the experience
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:44] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna allele Frequency can be seen in what is expressed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:02:47] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: they affect each other, but they are not interchangeable.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:03:03] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Well, that wasnt said
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:03:10] <Sara_Ks> you are debunked again
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:03:16] <moonweed> we are simply actors playing our roles... even the antisocial or fringe thinkers have parts
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:03:26] <moonweed> sometimes to point out that we have no part
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:03:28] <mobic> moonweed indeed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:03] <moonweed> there was a thing i heard once i took to heart. it clicked in my head. nothing you do matters but it is vital that you do do it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:07] <mobic> and expression=an expression
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:29] <Shirakawasuna> haha, now you're trying to get all snarky and use the same words I am ;)
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:31] <Shirakawasuna> [01:45] <Sara_Ks> Well, it doesnt matter, the term means a change in allele frequency that returns to the original state. Changes due to environment for example
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:31] <moonweed> it is a fatalistic view
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:31] <mobic> moonweed it might matter
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:37] <makor> moonweed+ you got to watch what you hear, is the moral to that one
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:04:53] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna all this is simply a diversion by you, even if unknowingly, that is why YOU are debunked. You cannot explain the statisical method for showing evolution, yet you promote it. You point to sources, which I bet will not do any better, if they did, you could simply state how it is done
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:14] <moonweed> no, it speaks of a view longer than a human life, than several generations
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:20] <mobic> moonweed could be viewed as such
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:21] <moonweed> i see it as a message of hope
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:34] <mobic> could also be viewed as a mantra too
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:36] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you stated that 'the term' (the one you made up/are remembering wrong) means a change in allele frequency. You give me an article about expression. They are not the same thing.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:45] <makor> moonweed+ ok, inb that sence yes
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:48] <mobic> moonweed ok
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:51] <makor> inb =in
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:05:54] <moonweed> well then, i am on the road to a compassionate and hopeful mantra lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:09] <moonweed> i have a pollyanna pessimism
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:13] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: no change in allele frequency required from that article, although regulation of transcription is an integral part of the analysis.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:15] <mobic> hehehe
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:32] <mobic> thanx moonweed that made me giggle
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:35] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna The article DOES state it, if you read it closely and what they are talking about. Expression is based on genetic composition
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:37] <Sara_Ks> Sheesh
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:47] <moonweed> giggling is good for the soul
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:52] <mobic> indeed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:06:54] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna SO what?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:07:04] <moonweed> and outright laughter lowers bad cholesterol
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:07:31] <mobic> well i get deep breaths and those always feel good
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:08:23] <moonweed> i'm going to give quiiting smoking another try... that always alters my consciousness long term
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:08:38] <mobic> how long you been doin it?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:08:39] <moonweed> last go lasted 2.5 months
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:08:43] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: so... you have been incoherent. If your original point was simply about changes in expression, which *does not* require allele frequency change, you could have simply said so. Instead, you brought up this 'genetic oscillation' term.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:01] <moonweed> quit 5 times, smoked for 24 years
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:13] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: now you hide behind the bit on expression by saying it represents genes. Amazing.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:21] * mobic stoped on febuary 25th of 1990
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:22] <moonweed> 6th is the charm... i mean i know what doesn't work by now lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:22] Join danielle{ has joined this channel (OOOOOOOOO@66.212.208.208).
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:22] Mode CancelBot gives danielle{ the permission to talk.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:09:52] <mobic> after smoking 20 yrs at 2 1/2 to 3 packs a day
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:03] <moonweed> i knew a danielle once... unfortunately i dated her sister instead of her
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:10] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna What is amazing is that you don't even understand what that article is saying
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:15] <Sara_Ks> Sheesh
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:22] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you don't understand it at all :/
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:28] <Sara_Ks> Maybe, like you said, in a few years you will
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:41] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you probably googled it, found the word 'oscillation', read some terms you didn't understand and decided to fudge a bit.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:44] <moonweed> mobic, one problem is living int he moment... and smoking
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:10:49] <danielle{> moonweed oh, that was me
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:07] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Stop the insults
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:08] <moonweed> i have to move away from be here now and toward "in an oxygen tent then"
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:23] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you're claiming I don't understand it, too.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:28] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: so... same to you?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:32] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Tell me exactly what you think it is talking about
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:42] <Sara_Ks> state it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:42] <makor> moonweed+ i have only had 3 sigaretts this year.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:42] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: the article is about regulatory systems affecting gene transcription and expression.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:44] <mobic> moonweed oh yeah... i remember... i enjoy it... and after all these years of not doing it i still every now and then want a cigerette again
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:11:48] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: it is not about allele frequency change.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:01] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you state that allele frequencies were what you were speaking of.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:01] <moonweed> i had 8 today... hmmm, no 10
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:04] <moonweed> memory
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:04] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Explain the implication as it applies to cells
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:20] <mobic> moonweed my motive is now i strung a really tough record to break
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:25] <moonweed> still not back up to 2.5 packs a day so...
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:27] <makor> dont start chwing the gum though, it is just as addictive
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:42] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna There is a relationship, tell me what it is
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:52] <mobic> danielle{ how you doing on your quest?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:12:59] <moonweed> anything can be addictive in a bad habit way
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:00] <mobic> still smokeless?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:09] <danielle{> mobic quitting you mean?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:12] <mobic> yeah
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:16] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: for the article, in coarse terms, oscillations in expression and transcription as affected by regulatory systems (specific ones).
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:18] <danielle{> lousy
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:21] * Fundamenta|ist stirs
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:31] <mobic> danielle{ hang in there
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:42] <moonweed> danielle, one can always try agin as long as there is breath in the body
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:13:54] <danielle{> i need to really want to
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:14:02] <danielle{> i can seem to get in that mind set
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:14:03] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna uh boy and of the relationship?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:14:04] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: and it's obvious how they're related. I've said expression and transcription multiple times.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:14:36] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Related to genetic expression, what is this relationship?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:14:41] <moonweed> i used to be able to pray and meditate to give me a boost better than cigarettes... i forgot how
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:01] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Do you think that gene expression can be related to evironment?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:01] <moonweed> i just yawn when i try now
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:11] <danielle{> Jesus helped me quit for 6 years once
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:12] <mobic> i just take a deep breath and like that it dont hurt
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:12] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: do you have a point to your questions?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:23] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna avoidance
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:24] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: you've already displayed that you don't know what the article's about, as you don't believe my summary.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:26] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Do you think that gene expression can be related to evironment?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:37] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: I don't have to think it. It is.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:38] <Solice> What's scary about medical decision-making is that it is some times best on "current medical literature" without the doctors taking into consideration what they all know very well, that being that research funding and where it is directed dictates where well-defined knowledge of human systems exists and where there are gaps. Too often doctors pretend something is not true simply because research funding has not been spnt to explo
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:48] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna I know what it is about and the implication, you do not seem to know
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:53] <makor> THere was a Anti tobaco documentary i watched the other night. The ending was a lawyer going to see a client in prision, the prisioner is in high securite , like hanable lector, and the lawyer asks what he is in for, ( the prisioner) and the guard replies" He sold drugs to children and addicted them for life and when they died he went and pushed it on more children ," the lawyer said how, and it ended with the guard saying, He owne a
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:15:57] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: please make your point.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:16:06] <moonweed> mobic, as with danielle's prayer, it is a mental trick. self support is divine.
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[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:17:01] <mobic> well i did have help.... my 5 year old son at the time asked me to quit cause he wanted to grow old with me
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:17:36] Part Grey_Fox has left this channel.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:17:48] <moonweed> there was a cute thing i heard about baptist's once (born into the bible belt); pray like He hears you, work like he doesn't. ie., have faith but lean to heavily
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:17:56] <moonweed> don't lean too heavily
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:18:02] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Yeah, if enviornment affects gene expression and when you move from an enviroment say, day and night, over a period of time genetic expression can change. When it does you and you look at a given point in time, you can think you see evolution. But perhaps not
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:18:04] <Solice> As regards this insane frenzy about cigarette smoking, it just seems like chicken little planting tulip bulbs while the sky is falling.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:18:23] <moonweed> solice, it does affect health
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:18:36] <moonweed> it is addictive
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:18:42] <mobic> Solice SMOKEM if you gottem
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:18:57] <Solice> moonweed, so does car exhaust and the stress of people being cold and uncaring toward one anotherl.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:19:02] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna When you look at the population at different times, over long periods, you will see different genetic composition, but it may not be evolutionary
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:19:07] <moonweed> i just hate being addicted to something.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:19:22] <moonweed> that and i hate wheezing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:19:35] <Sara_Ks> But simply an oscillation
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:19:45] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: OK. So again, you posted that article to help me with your term 'genetic oscillation', which apparently is just expression, despite the fact that you said it was allele frequency change.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:19:55] <moonweed> but people who shower in perfume and cologne make me wheeze to. nothing i can do about that save walk away... unless i am at work
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:12] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna There would BE one, if looked at over time
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:16] <Solice> It's just that cigarette smoking is receiving attention and action far disproportionate to the problems it actually causes, especially as compared to other environmental factors.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:37] <moonweed> blame the ex-smokers lol
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:43] <makor> Solice+ it kills millions a year
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:50] <moonweed> maybe
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:50] <makor> its evil stuff
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:52] <mobic> cigarette smoking killes
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:58] <Solice> makorm so does stress and car exhaust.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:58] <moonweed> maybe kills millions
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:20:59] <mobic> kills
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:09] <makor> Solice+ no argument
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:11] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna If you expose a species to darkness, over time there WILL be a change
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:14] <danielle{> they keep taxing smokers to pay for all their programs that otherwise wouldn't get passed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:19] <mobic> well no one is getting out of this alive
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:24] <moonweed> they include coal miners and asbestos removers etc. in those numbers... at least those who smoke
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:24] <danielle{> why not tax alcohol?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:33] <moonweed> alcohol is taxed
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:41] <mobic> but i dont want to suffercate to death like i saw my father do
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:41] <danielle{> moonweed not like cigarettes
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:21:59] <Solice> So does obesity, and you don't see a massive movement to redesign cities and suburbs so that people get more exercise by walking and using mass transit more often.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:09] <danielle{> why not junk food?
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:10] <moonweed> and after enough people stop smoking and the dollars garnered from cigarettes dwindles... look for alcohol tax increases
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:16] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: alright, I'm not doing this any more tonight, I have to sleep. If you wanted to simply say that effects can be expression and not allele frequency change, you could've done that without the references to your made-up term, that paper (which only has to do with specific regulatory systems), or the numerous incredulous questions.
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:24] <mobic> and i like that my chest dont hurt when i breath deeply after excersizing
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:27] <moonweed> junk food gets a higher tax than basic groveries already
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:35] <moonweed> usually on a state level though
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:42] <makor> Tobacco is a addiction which once addicted is ultra difficult to stop and you have to spend ten dollars a day every day to pay for your addiction then you die
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:44] <danielle{> moonweed not where i live
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:49] <Shirakawasuna> Sara_Ks: instead, your argument was either rambling by nature or was in fact the product of grasping at straws. I choose the latter, given how it's gone :/
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:52] <Sara_Ks> Shirakawasuna Thats it
[Wed Nov 7 2007] [02:22:52] <Shirakawasuna> g'night
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