Oct 25 12:01:42 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Introduction (jpr) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:01:47 <jpr> Welcome to the openSUSE GNOME Team Meeting!
Oct 25 12:01:56 <jpr> This week we are continuing our format experiments by having a theme topic to start the meeting, and we have Stefan Seyfried from the mobile devices team to talk about Bluetooth. There will be Q&A after a brief presentation.
Oct 25 12:02:30 <seife> Was this my "go"? :-)
Oct 25 12:02:30 <jpr> so, sit back, relax and lets get started :-)
Oct 25 12:02:46 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - IBluetooth Guest Speaker (seife) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:02:57 <seife> Ok, short introduction:
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Oct 25 12:03:22 <seife> I'm Stefan Seyfried, working in the Nürnberg facility in the Mobile devices team and the QA team (50:50)
Oct 25 12:03:25 * gothica (n=pavel@87.251.157.6) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:03:45 <seife> In Mobile Devices, i am mostly doing suspend and power management related stuff and i am maintainer of the core bluetooth packages.
Oct 25 12:04:01 <seife> That's it already :-)
Oct 25 12:04:45 <captain_magnus> seife: How long have you been following bluetooth development on Linux and what's your experience on other os's?
Oct 25 12:05:07 * captain_magnus kickstarts the q&a... :-)
Oct 25 12:05:27 <jpr> well, seife can you give us a brief overview of the current bluetooth state at the low levels?
Oct 25 12:05:29 <seife> I'm following the BlueZ development since ~2004, and i have seen that somebody plugged a BT USB device into a windows box.
Oct 25 12:05:36 <seife> ;-)
Oct 25 12:05:53 <seife> Ok. As many of you might have noticed, lots of stuff in BT-land changed recently.
Oct 25 12:06:17 <seife> The communication mechanism changed from socket based communication with hcid to dbus
Oct 25 12:06:49 <seife> in former times there were many smaller daemons (sdpd, hcid, ...), now most of the tasks get pulled into hcid
Oct 25 12:07:12 <seife> This makes some sense, since many of those services are closely intertwingled, and one "bluetooth super server"
Oct 25 12:07:39 <seife> will know better and easier about the global system state than lots of small "service daemons" that need to
Oct 25 12:07:52 <seife> communicate among each other to find out the global state.
Oct 25 12:07:58 <seife> Consequences of that:
Oct 25 12:08:22 <seife> - no sdpd anymore (instead hcid gets started with option -s)
Oct 25 12:08:48 <seife> - no hidd anymore (instead there is the input service that handles input devices in conjunction with hcid)
Oct 25 12:09:19 <seife> - users can configure (almost) everything via dbus (and thus via a shiny desktop applet)
Oct 25 12:09:27 <seife> More consequences of that:
Oct 25 12:09:44 <seife> - you can edit hcid.conf, but it probably will have no effect
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Oct 25 12:10:22 <seife> (if you changed a setting via dbus, then hcid will remember the setting and this setting will take precedence over hcid.conf)
Oct 25 12:10:25 * alan_ (n=chatzill@ip-83-147-173-111.dub-3rk1.metro.digiweb.ie) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:10:48 <seife> - yast2 bluetooth module does not work very well because of this (and
Oct 25 12:10:50 * henrix (i=miguel@84.90.24.110) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:11:05 <seife> because i missed updating the spec for the yast developers - it is not their fault)
Oct 25 12:11:28 <captain_magnus> Sounds great... Is all of this in 10.3 already or will that be introduced in 11.0?
Oct 25 12:11:34 <seife> - many people claim "you cannot configure it from the command line anymore" (well, tough luck)
Oct 25 12:11:47 <seife> This is all in 10.3 already.
Oct 25 12:12:06 <seife> Of course it is still work in progress (and progress is going on FAST in BT-land).
Oct 25 12:12:16 <rodrigo> how does this affect GNOME (or KDE...) apps?
Oct 25 12:12:26 <rodrigo> what's the interface for those apps?
Oct 25 12:12:49 <seife> One problem is, that i actually did not expect that we'd get that far for 10.3 (otherwise yast2 bluetooth would be gone already)
Oct 25 12:13:16 <seife> GUI apps basically must be ported to the new interface. Marcel provides bluez-gnome, which
Oct 25 12:13:42 <seife> has exactly those features HE needs. He is, however, not rejecting patches and there have been
Oct 25 12:14:03 <seife> quite some that he applied recently (i was 3 weeks off, so i'm not totally current on the matter :-)
Oct 25 12:14:33 <jpr> the gnome packages involved are as follows:
Oct 25 12:14:34 <seife> Basically it should be not too hard, there is a dbus-api.txt file in the source (and i think i also
Oct 25 12:14:41 <jpr> bluez-gnome
Oct 25 12:14:41 <jpr> gnome-vfs-obexftp
Oct 25 12:14:41 <jpr> libbtctl
Oct 25 12:14:41 <jpr> gnome-bluetooth
Oct 25 12:14:41 <jpr> gnome-phone-manager
Oct 25 12:14:59 <seife> package it in the bluez-* packages somewhere) that describes the api.
Oct 25 12:15:00 <jpr> these were fairly out of date in 10.3
Oct 25 12:15:11 <jpr> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/jproseve/
Oct 25 12:15:13 <jpr> has updates
Oct 25 12:15:26 <jpr> and they have been submitted to factory and will be moved to GNOME:STABLE as well
Oct 25 12:15:38 <jpr> bluez-gnome provides the pairing applet
Oct 25 12:15:39 <seife> Yes, and as soon as you package one of those, it will be out of date again :-) As i wrote, progress
Oct 25 12:15:43 <seife> is going on FAST.
Oct 25 12:15:49 <jpr> gnome-bluetooth is the obex stuff
Oct 25 12:15:53 <federico1> captain_magnus: hmmmmmm
Oct 25 12:16:00 <jpr> and gnome-phone-manager
Oct 25 12:16:10 <jpr> handles sms send/receive with the phone
Oct 25 12:16:31 <captain_magnus> Can gnome-phone-manager *actually* send/receive txt messages from/to the phone with the updated packages?
Oct 25 12:16:37 <seife> But in the end, much of this will be easier to implement. IIUC, the goal is, for example, that you request
Oct 25 12:16:53 <jpr> captain_magnus: yes, but i can't test, my phone doesn't support it :-)
Oct 25 12:17:12 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Bluetooth Q&A (seife) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:17:20 <seife> via dbus "give me the dialup interface of device 00:11:22:... " and you get a filedescriptor in return that you can
Oct 25 12:17:28 <seife> use directly to start pppd on it.
Oct 25 12:17:32 <seife> Right now, you need to:
Oct 25 12:17:47 <seife> - find out the rfcomm channel (sdptool browse)
Oct 25 12:17:54 <seife> - edit /etc/rfcomm.conf (as root)
Oct 25 12:18:01 <seife> - rfcomm bind all (root!)
Oct 25 12:18:10 <seife> - edit the config for dialup
Oct 25 12:18:15 <seife> - start dialup on rfcomm0
Oct 25 12:18:41 <seife> In the future, a dialing program (or something doing SYNCML,...) just says
Oct 25 12:18:52 <alan_> heh, trying to turn up the brightness fails on my macbook
Oct 25 12:18:57 <jpr> i should note that there are patches for NetworkManager upstream to support bluetooth
Oct 25 12:19:08 <jpr> network devices
Oct 25 12:19:08 <alan_> the brightness thingy that pops up on screen goes up 1 notch, but can't go any further
Oct 25 12:19:13 <tambet> "hopefully in the future you'll click on nm-applet that does everything
Oct 25 12:19:16 <alan_> known bug?
Oct 25 12:19:27 <seife> "give me service $FOO on device $device" and then it will get a channel that can be used for data transmission.
Oct 25 12:19:27 <jpr> alan_: a) meeting in progress b) yes and update is submitted
Oct 25 12:19:47 <alan_> whoops, k
Oct 25 12:19:58 <seife> yes, but bluetooth network devices are actually not toooo interesting (PAN and NAP)
Oct 25 12:20:09 <tambet> the bluetooth patches for NM are very poorly done and need to be rewritten
Oct 25 12:20:13 <captain_magnus> Might be a bit naive, but did all this bluetooth progress start recently? Or has that been long in the making but we didn't keep up?
Oct 25 12:20:18 <seife> And i can't repeat here what Marcel said about those patches.
Oct 25 12:20:25 <seife> Ah, i see, tambet agrees :-)
Oct 25 12:20:36 <tambet> heh :)
Oct 25 12:20:53 <seife> It was long in the making, but there was old compatibility code.
Oct 25 12:21:06 <seife> Well, you know what happens as long as it does still work _somehow_ :-)
Oct 25 12:21:31 <seife> recently (around 10.2 timeframe), marcel started to remove the old compatibility code and interfaces.
Oct 25 12:21:40 <seife> New functions were only offered via dbus.
Oct 25 12:22:07 <seife> dbus was made mandatory (imagine the cryout from the embedded folks running 2.4.x kernels)
Oct 25 12:22:17 <seife> So yes, we did not keep up.
Oct 25 12:22:21 <seife> Nobody did.
Oct 25 12:22:38 <jpr> Other questions for seife or on bluetooth?
Oct 25 12:22:52 <seife> So Marcel got pissed and forced everybody to keep up. And in fact he is right (IMHO), since the new infrastructure is better.
Oct 25 12:22:54 <captain_magnus> How easy will it be...
Oct 25 12:23:04 <seife> Yes, come on! Ask!
Oct 25 12:23:07 <captain_magnus> ...to add a bluetooth mouse or headset now when it's all dbus
Oct 25 12:23:14 <captain_magnus> (From the backend point of view)
Oct 25 12:23:17 <seife> Very easy actually.
Oct 25 12:23:32 <seife> ?"backend point of view"?
Oct 25 12:23:43 <captain_magnus> The backend must know what sort of device it is, right?
Oct 25 12:23:57 <captain_magnus> And be able to announce it via dbus to whoever asks?
Oct 25 12:24:09 <captain_magnus> Backend meaning hcid
Oct 25 12:24:09 <seife> yes, the backend is mostly hcid. That's one reason why it's all pulled into one daemon.
Oct 25 12:24:55 <seife> Since hcid is the central instance managing the devices, it is not too hard to announce what is seen.
Oct 25 12:25:21 <seife> For example, it is very easy to do the "bluetooth monitor" that is included in bluez-gnome (and kbluemon in kdebluetooth).
Oct 25 12:25:33 <captain_magnus> What happens when a new device is brought to the market and hcid does not know what it is... Can a frontend app still make use of it?
Oct 25 12:25:44 <seife> ok, now i understand.
Oct 25 12:26:17 <seife> That does not happen. Bluetooth is pretty heavily standardized. Sometimes the kernel driver needs some workarounds, but that's it.
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Oct 25 12:26:42 <seife> If there comes something totally new, with totally new capabilities - well, then it will need to be implemented, that's true.
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Oct 25 12:27:09 <seife> Devices have certain capabilities and "profiles" which are defined by the bluetooth standard.
Oct 25 12:27:26 <seife> (don't quote me literally on that, i'm not too deep into bluetooth internals)
Oct 25 12:27:39 <jpr> great
Oct 25 12:27:46 <jpr> seife: thank you, very interesting
Oct 25 12:28:02 <jpr> seife: if you could hang out till the end, there might be more questions
Oct 25 12:28:09 <jpr> i know i have some technical ones :-)
Oct 25 12:28:10 <seife> ok, no problem.
Oct 25 12:28:16 * jgrant (i=jgrant@nat/novell/x-cd48c0deb363a18a) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:28:26 <captain_magnus> seife: Thanks heaps!
Oct 25 12:28:26 <jpr> thanks again to seife for giving us bluetooth insight!
Oct 25 12:28:36 <jpr> try out the gnome bluetooth packages as well!
Oct 25 12:28:38 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Bug plan status (federico and rodrigo) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:28:45 <jpr> federico1, rodrigo quick update?
Oct 25 12:28:49 <federico1> sure
Oct 25 12:28:50 * rodrigo will test with his nokia cell phone
Oct 25 12:28:53 <seife> Yes, i will. It is on my agenda for quite some time :-)
Oct 25 12:29:08 <rodrigo> go ahead federico1 , I haven't done anything since the last meeting about the bug plan
Oct 25 12:29:21 <federico1> I added the "gnome-*" tags to the Status Whiteboard of a little bunch of bugs
Oct 25 12:29:49 <federico1> They are linked from the "10.2" and "10.3" sections in http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Bugs
Oct 25 12:30:06 <federico1> the idea is to go through the full buglist, adding those tags as appropriate. Today I'll spend a few hours doing that :)
Oct 25 12:30:28 <rodrigo> federico1: I already did that on a few bugs, will go through the list also later on
Oct 25 12:30:38 <federico1> I haven't done that since I was in China...
Oct 25 12:30:43 <federico1> rodrigo: excellent, thanks :)
Oct 25 12:30:45 <captain_magnus> I added it to my two bugs today as well...
Oct 25 12:31:06 <federico1> rodrigo: it's almost night for you, isn't it? do you want to start tomorrow on that, so we don't conflict today?
Oct 25 12:31:07 <rodrigo> federico1: in last meeting, we asked people to add the gnome- tags for bugs they file
Oct 25 12:31:10 <captain_magnus> Just too bad you can't add whiteboard stuff when you create the bug
Oct 25 12:31:15 <rodrigo> federico1: yes, sure
Oct 25 12:31:41 <suseROCKS> Can someone explain what "adding the gnome-tags" means specifically so I can do that as well?
Oct 25 12:31:46 <federico1> captain_magnus: yeah, that's a bit inconvenient
Oct 25 12:31:49 <federico1> suseROCKS: sure
Oct 25 12:33:56 * captain_magnus hopes federico1 is typing :-)
Oct 25 12:34:04 <jpr> federico1: hello?
Oct 25 12:34:08 <federico1> suseROCKS: start reading at http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Bugs#Criteria_for_bugs_to_fix and then see http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Bugs#Categories forthe actual stuff you put in the Status Whiteboard
Oct 25 12:34:10 <suseROCKS> oh thank God! I thought I was disconnected LOL
Oct 25 12:34:15 <jpr> me too
Oct 25 12:34:27 <suseROCKS> Thank you Federico
Oct 25 12:34:42 <jpr> any questions/comments for federico1 ?
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Oct 25 12:35:00 <jpr> federico1: when will you consider this plan done so we can use it as the basis for our bug fixing?
Oct 25 12:35:05 <federico1> suseROCKS: the idea is to tag bugs based on what they are: functions that don't work when you use them, or something that is wrong out of the box but that doesn't really prevent you from working.
Oct 25 12:35:16 * DimStar (n=dominiqu@92.80.49.46) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:35:21 <federico1> suseROCKS: and we use the Status Whiteboard field in bugzilla for those tags
Oct 25 12:35:31 <suseROCKS> Got it
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Oct 25 12:36:00 <federico1> jpr: it's pretty much done; the Bugs page just needs a bit of polishing to remove the "Draft" stuff and old info :)
Oct 25 12:36:13 <federico1> jpr: I'll take care of it today, since the tags we have are already pretty good
Oct 25 12:36:22 <jpr> other questions?
Oct 25 12:36:29 <captain_magnus> federico1: Perhaps create one category...
Oct 25 12:36:40 <captain_magnus> ...for bugs that have no whiteboard status?
Oct 25 12:36:41 <rodrigo> federico1: in last meeting it was suggested to add gnome-accessibility
Oct 25 12:36:50 <captain_magnus> ==> On the bug page
Oct 25 12:36:59 <rodrigo> federico1: we agreed it was better done as a themed bug/hacking day
Oct 25 12:37:09 <rodrigo> but since you were not around, what do you think?
Oct 25 12:38:07 <federico1> captain_magnus: that's a good idea. Note that for some bugs I didn't add any tags, since they didn't match the proposed categories and they didn't seem very important... random/minor enhancement requests, weird special cases, etc.
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Oct 25 12:38:27 <jpr> federico1: good candidates for sending upstream and closing
Oct 25 12:38:45 <federico1> rodrigo: oh, that's a good idea
Oct 25 12:39:01 <federico1> rodrigo: I *think* I haven't run into any of those, but can you please add a tag to the Bugs page?
Oct 25 12:39:08 <captain_magnus> We should have a generic tag for them then perhaps? Otherwise people will keep looking at thoise bugs and try to categorize them...
Oct 25 12:39:09 <rodrigo> yes
Oct 25 12:39:25 <rodrigo> you mean you want to use that g-a11y for the whiteboard?
Oct 25 12:39:28 <jpr> federico1: we have the should_go_upstream keyword presently
Oct 25 12:39:32 <federico1> jpr: do we need a tag for that apart from should-go-upstream?
Oct 25 12:39:47 <jpr> i don't know, its your plan :-)
Oct 25 12:40:20 <jpr> federico1: so your current prediction is that for the next meeting we can wrap up the bug plan and declare it closed?
Oct 25 12:40:37 <rodrigo> I don't think we need that, apart from having a query to the should_go_upstream GNOME bugs
Oct 25 12:40:55 <federico1> captain_magnus: in theory we go through the bugs in numerical order (people are of course free to tag new bugs they file, or random bugs they find in bugzilla). So you can assume that anything after the "latest" bug number listed in the Bugs page hasnot been categorized yet, while earlier bugs have been taken care of
Oct 25 12:41:02 <suseROCKS> Federico... I proposed the a11y idea last week, because I am one of those people. :-) The only reason why I suggested it was to help make a11y issues stand out apart from general issues.
Oct 25 12:41:20 <federico1> rodrigo: yes, gnome-accesibility
Oct 25 12:41:26 <rodrigo> ok
Oct 25 12:41:39 <rodrigo> AI -> add gnome-accessibility tag to the bugs page (rodrigo)
Oct 25 12:41:40 <federico1> jpr: let me think about the upstream keyword
Oct 25 12:41:45 <mw|out> whoa
Oct 25 12:41:46 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 12:41:46 * mw|out is now known as mw
Oct 25 12:41:46 <suseROCKS> YAY!
Oct 25 12:41:51 * mw forgot to nick in, woops
Oct 25 12:41:54 <federico1> jpr: yeah, for the next meeting it's goingto be fully complete
Oct 25 12:42:03 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 12:42:06 * jpr updates the eta
Oct 25 12:42:25 <federico1> suseROCKS: sorry I missed the last meeting; I was sleeping after the flight back :)
Oct 25 12:42:29 <jpr> suseROCKS: helping tag the a11y bugs would be a good way to help out, talk to federico1 and rodrigo after the meeting
Oct 25 12:42:37 <jpr> ok, lets wrap this one up
Oct 25 12:42:40 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Ancient distro bug squash (mtgordon) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:42:49 <jpr> mtgordon is actually ill and has been all week
Oct 25 12:43:00 <federico1> AI -> federico to finish the bug plan on the Bugs page
Oct 25 12:43:14 <jpr> he is going to reschedule the ancient bug distro bug squash to Nov 2nd
Oct 25 12:43:16 <suseROCKS> Thanks JP
Oct 25 12:43:35 <jpr> hopefully this is not too inconvenient for people
Oct 25 12:43:48 <jpr> but we aren't prepared for tomorrow
Oct 25 12:44:03 <jpr> questions on that?
Oct 25 12:44:05 <captain_magnus> I'm sure it's more inconvinient for mtgordong to be ill than for us at the mement...
Oct 25 12:44:21 <rodrigo> yeah :)
Oct 25 12:44:21 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Team Goals (jpr) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:44:30 <jpr> i mailed about this to the list:
Oct 25 12:44:44 <jpr> http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Goals
Oct 25 12:44:52 <jpr> no feedback :-)
Oct 25 12:45:09 <jpr> does anyone have any comments/suggestions before it gets finalized?
Oct 25 12:45:25 <jpr> its just a statement of the extra goals of this team
Oct 25 12:45:38 <captain_magnus> Sounds good to me... Go for it! :-)
Oct 25 12:45:41 <jpr> its meant to be on top of the broader project goals
Oct 25 12:45:56 <DimStar> I like the goals... it would be good if people would realize that gnome and kde are equally supported within openSUSE
Oct 25 12:45:59 <rodrigo> sounds good to me also
Oct 25 12:46:10 * wberrier (i=wberrier@nat/novell/x-ba2c44be753b7e87) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:46:35 <jpr> anything else?
Oct 25 12:46:52 <rodrigo> yeah, probably adding 'cooperation with other desktops'
Oct 25 12:46:54 <suseROCKS> re-reading it now...
Oct 25 12:47:16 <rodrigo> although 'Contribute to improving openSUSE as whole' might include that
Oct 25 12:47:20 <jpr> i think so
Oct 25 12:47:56 * gothica (n=pavel@87.251.157.6) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:47:59 <jpr> AI: Make team goals final (jpr)
Oct 25 12:48:00 <federico1> jpr: "help solve integration issues between gnome and the rest of the world"?
Oct 25 12:48:09 <captain_magnus> Haha
Oct 25 12:48:13 <suseROCKS> What about something like, improving user understanding of use of Gnome?
Oct 25 12:48:24 <federico1> i.e. the things you never consider when you are a plain upstream developer
Oct 25 12:48:27 <jpr> suseROCKS: which users?
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Oct 25 12:48:37 <jpr> federico1: "Contribute to upstream GNOME development" ?
Oct 25 12:48:44 <jpr> federico1: "Attract upstream GNOME developers and users to openSUSE"
Oct 25 12:48:44 <suseROCKS> general users? or is that not in this scope?
Oct 25 12:48:50 <jpr> federico1: do those cover that?
Oct 25 12:49:19 <jpr> suseROCKS: i think that falls out naturally from all of these goals
Oct 25 12:49:28 <suseROCKS> ok
Oct 25 12:49:56 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 12:49:56 <jpr> next
Oct 25 12:49:59 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Task Review | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:49:59 <federico1> jpr: hmm, probably
Oct 25 12:50:13 <jpr> bug plan we discussed already
Oct 25 12:50:15 <hpj> i think it covers it. the goals are more high-level, in any event
Oct 25 12:50:26 <jpr> mw, sbrabec status of G:S updates?
Oct 25 12:50:47 <jpr> hpj: status on where-to-keep-the-code?
Oct 25 12:51:24 <hpj> want me to go ahead?
Oct 25 12:51:30 <captain_magnus> hpj: Go!
Oct 25 12:51:33 <jpr> we also need to get "Fix GNOME/Submitting Bugs page to include more information"
Oct 25 12:51:34 <hpj> ok
Oct 25 12:51:43 <sbrabec> jpr: G:S is now released for all distros, but it still needs a help with fixing remaining failures: https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=GNOME%3ASTABLE
Oct 25 12:51:58 <sbrabec> Last synced today morning.
Oct 25 12:52:04 <hpj> so, the issue is: where do we keep projects that are specific to openSUSE and not upstream
Oct 25 12:52:26 <captain_magnus> forge.novell.com?
Oct 25 12:52:34 <hpj> we have svn.opensuse.org, which the yast maintainers are using
Oct 25 12:52:35 <jpr> sbrabec: since that will always be ongoing, can we call the task done now in the wiki?
Oct 25 12:52:46 <hpj> i've been in touch with the guys managing that repository
Oct 25 12:53:16 <hpj> and basically they don't want more projects in it, since it lives outside the novell authentication infrastructure
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Oct 25 12:53:20 <hpj> so has to be maintained separately
Oct 25 12:53:43 <suseROCKS> "Improve our package summaries and descriptions" on the wiki or the descriptions in rpm packages as seen in software management?
Oct 25 12:53:44 <hpj> we decided to try to use forge.novell.com and see if that suits our needs
Oct 25 12:53:44 <sbrabec> If we don't care much about 10.1, then yes. 10.2 and 10.3 has only a few failures, but they require further work.
Oct 25 12:53:45 <rodrigo> :(
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Oct 25 12:54:04 <jpr> sbrabec: ok
Oct 25 12:54:27 <hpj> that's where we are now.
Oct 25 12:54:30 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 12:54:47 <jpr> rodrigo: "Write (or find one already available) a script to convert irclog output to the wiki format" can we cancel that now that munkii is the man?
Oct 25 12:54:48 <captain_magnus> hpj: You don't have to create a separate project for each application in forge for this to work right?
Oct 25 12:54:53 * munkii (n=munkii@217.54.184.58) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:55:11 <hpj> captain_magnus: i don't know
Oct 25 12:55:22 <hpj> captain_magnus: i was assuming we would create a project for each application
Oct 25 12:55:22 <mw> i really don't want to use forge
Oct 25 12:55:23 <rodrigo> jpr: that is not needed now with munkii doing the irclog uploads
Oct 25 12:55:31 <jpr> rodrigo: ok, please remove it
Oct 25 12:55:38 <captain_magnus> mw: Why?
Oct 25 12:55:56 <captain_magnus> hpj: Hmm... That'd be a hell of a lot of projects to maintain...
Oct 25 12:55:57 <hpj> mw: i'd like some good reasons
Oct 25 12:56:01 * psp250 (n=hardlife@d037236.adsl.hansenet.de) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 12:56:15 <jpr> mw: "Improve our package summaries and descriptions" was discussed in the project meeting
Oct 25 12:56:22 <jpr> mw: using an upstream project that is doing that
Oct 25 12:56:40 <hpj> captain_magnus: do you know how many?
Oct 25 12:56:42 <jpr> in general, everyone please remember to update the tasks page
Oct 25 12:56:44 <mw> reasons: new projects require approval, it's unclear how maintained it really is (our internal version isn't)
Oct 25 12:56:57 <jpr> with ETA and Status
Oct 25 12:56:58 <captain_magnus> mw: forge is maintained...
Oct 25 12:56:59 <mw> jpr: what do you mean by an upstream project?
Oct 25 12:57:02 <jpr> and to volunteer
Oct 25 12:57:03 <jpr> !
Oct 25 12:57:06 <rodrigo> yeah, just tried creating a project and I have to convince the admins, it seems
Oct 25 12:57:09 <jpr> mw: see project meeting log
Oct 25 12:57:13 <mw> ok
Oct 25 12:57:21 <captain_magnus> hpj: No, but rodrigo's osc scripts could probably tell you...
Oct 25 12:57:27 <suseROCKS> If "summaries and descriptions" has to do with cleaning up the lanaguage, I'd be glad to do it. I have a "period" fetish :-)
Oct 25 12:57:27 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Q&A - Non Developer | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 12:57:31 <jpr> Q&A!
Oct 25 12:57:37 <jpr> nothing in the wiki
Oct 25 12:57:46 <jpr> so i'll open the floor for all questions
Oct 25 12:58:12 <mw> What is our simplest yet "complete" package?
Oct 25 12:58:20 <Riggwelter> mw: define complete?
Oct 25 12:58:33 <mw> Riggwelter: -lang subpackage, uses gconf scriptlets, etc
Oct 25 12:58:34 * btimothy pokes jgrant, eward, and jframe to ask their questions here abt. opensuse! ;)
Oct 25 12:58:47 <mw> Riggwelter: i want to copy its spec to the wiki and comment and explain the living crap out of it
Oct 25 12:58:57 <Riggwelter> mw: lol :)
Oct 25 12:58:57 <jpr> mw, Riggwelter thats coming, we're on Q&A right now
Oct 25 12:59:01 <captain_magnus> jpr How do we follow up the bluetooth stuff from here? I am installing your updates and will try it, but it'd be no fun if bugzilla is the only place to go from here....
Oct 25 12:59:10 <mw> jpr: that was a question!
Oct 25 12:59:20 <jpr> non-dev Q&A :-)
Oct 25 12:59:23 <mw> oh
Oct 25 12:59:25 <mw> oops
Oct 25 12:59:28 <jpr> captain_magnus: we follow up by testing
Oct 25 12:59:34 <jpr> and yes, reporting bugs
Oct 25 12:59:47 <jpr> and potentially doing feature work
Oct 25 12:59:51 <jpr> there are a few problems
Oct 25 12:59:57 <jpr> like pairing a keyboard at boot time
Oct 25 13:00:02 <jpr> that still need solving
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Oct 25 13:00:36 <jpr> other questions this week?
Oct 25 13:00:43 <captain_magnus> Perhaps we should create a BT experience page then...
Oct 25 13:00:55 <captain_magnus> ...where people that have updated their packages for 10.3 can comment
Oct 25 13:01:02 <suseROCKS> I'm noticing problems with themes, notably with Crux, but also others. What is being done to address theme compatibility in GNOME?
Oct 25 13:01:33 <captain_magnus> And also, if it's valuable, have a separate section for Factory (if it's going to improve immensly for Factory)
Oct 25 13:01:41 <jpr> suseROCKS: A: not much currently, but it would be a good idea to include a theme audit on http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Ideas/11.0
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Oct 25 13:02:15 <jpr> captain_magnus: yes, we could have GNOME:Bluetooth, or use the bluetooth page
Oct 25 13:02:18 abock afonit aka_druid alan_ apokryphos athrun aTypical
Oct 25 13:02:19 abock afonit aka_druid alan_ apokryphos athrun aTypical
Oct 25 13:02:28 matsakis mauropm metavoid mhutch munkii mw
Oct 25 13:02:29 matsakis mauropm metavoid mhutch munkii mw
Oct 25 13:02:35 <suseROCKS> Yeah, I don't know how I stumbled across and figured out the Crux issue. Other users would have blamed the apps themselves unnecessarily.
Oct 25 13:03:15 <suseROCKS> I'm sure the themes are causing needless headaches for developers and bugzilla.
Oct 25 13:03:16 <jpr> aTypical, munkii, DimStar, lejo, psp250, xcasex no questions from the lurkers?
Oct 25 13:03:50 <aTypical> Sorry, I was afk and haven't been following the meeting.
Oct 25 13:03:55 abock afonit aka_druid alan_ apokryphos athrun aTypical
Oct 25 13:04:01 <jpr> aTypical: is open Q&A time now
Oct 25 13:04:21 <psp250> jpr: Perhaps one, should bugs already posted upstream be posted on bno again in order to include patches before upstream does?
Oct 25 13:04:24 * captain_magnus is going to hug his pillow... l8er!
Oct 25 13:04:29 <DimStar> not at the moment... they will come later, as always :-)
Oct 25 13:04:38 <aTypical> Has anyone addressed the issue with update always wanting focus?
Oct 25 13:04:44 <jpr> psp250: if you want an update against 10.3, definitely
Oct 25 13:04:52 <mw> psp250: right, what jpr said :)
Oct 25 13:05:01 <jpr> psp250: if its for 11.0, then maybe/maybe not
Oct 25 13:05:12 <jpr> aTypical: we have several bugs on that
Oct 25 13:05:18 <jpr> aTypical: federico1 is looking into
Oct 25 13:05:22 <aTypical> Has a schedule been set on 11.0?
Oct 25 13:05:24 <aTypical> Thanks, jpr
Oct 25 13:05:29 <jpr> not officially
Oct 25 13:05:37 <jpr> but 11.0 will be in about ~ 7 months
Oct 25 13:06:10 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Reminders | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 13:06:22 <jpr> next meeting will be offset for asia and australia
Oct 25 13:06:25 <jpr> thats monthly
Oct 25 13:06:53 <jpr> and also in Nov. we'll slowly start moving to discussing more about 11.0 features
Oct 25 13:07:05 <Riggwelter> party on!
Oct 25 13:07:09 <jpr> either here or in focussed hacking meetings
Oct 25 13:07:13 <suseROCKS> Well I know I'll be on in November :-)
Oct 25 13:07:30 <jpr> thats it for non-dev q&a
Oct 25 13:07:32 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Packaging policy (mw)| http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 13:07:59 <mw> Yo
Oct 25 13:08:28 <mw> the packaging polixy page (GNOME/Packaging) is mostly complete
Oct 25 13:08:42 <mw> i'm sure it could use some clarifications and expansions, but i tihnk it covers most things now
Oct 25 13:09:04 <mw> one thing i want to add, prob. in a different page, is a sample spec file for a gnome package
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Oct 25 13:09:24 <mw> so i'm wondering what the simplest (yet "complete") package we have is
Oct 25 13:09:40 <Riggwelter> mw: Been looking for a simple (no frills) spec for you, can't find one in G:C at least :)
Oct 25 13:09:46 <mw> Riggwelter: neither could i :)
Oct 25 13:09:49 <Riggwelter> how about the new GNOME template?
Oct 25 13:10:05 <rodrigo> gnome-screensaver is simple AFAIR, not sure if complete as you like
Oct 25 13:10:20 <mw> Riggwelter: maybe we should find a small program to package
Oct 25 13:10:22 <jpr> do we need one example for libraries and one for apps?
Oct 25 13:10:26 <Riggwelter> rodrigo: does it have -lang and %gconf_foo?
Oct 25 13:10:26 * sbrabec (i=sbrabec@nat/suse/x-6d40b1562b1823f5) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 13:10:33 <mw> jpr: hmmm, that's probably a good idea
Oct 25 13:10:40 <Riggwelter> mw/jpr: +1
Oct 25 13:10:50 <mw> gnome-screensaver should at least have the gconf foo
Oct 25 13:10:56 <hpj> mw: we could package popomon :)
Oct 25 13:10:58 <mw> and i'm pretty sure a -lang package too
Oct 25 13:11:04 <rodrigo> Riggwelter: yes, has both it seems
Oct 25 13:11:07 <mw> hpj: does it use gconf?
Oct 25 13:11:11 <hpj> mw: no
Oct 25 13:11:17 <hpj> mw: it doesn't use much of anything
Oct 25 13:11:18 <Riggwelter> then gnome-screensaver may be a good one to use
Oct 25 13:11:19 <mw> hpj: hehe
Oct 25 13:11:33 <mw> iirc gnome-screensaver's spec is pretty long though
Oct 25 13:11:40 <jpr> AI: add sample spec files (mw)
Oct 25 13:11:55 <mw> and it has a number of rpmlint warnings, so i don't want to hold it up as a model to copy just yet :)
Oct 25 13:11:55 <jpr> it has funny stuff because of the xscreensaver stuff
Oct 25 13:12:02 <Riggwelter> rpm.org always used a fake one for its docs because no package is ever textbook
Oct 25 13:12:25 <mw> Riggwelter: we have the hello package for the same or similar purpose
Oct 25 13:12:29 <mw> we need gnome-hello
Oct 25 13:12:30 <Riggwelter> Rigg Jr's joined me :)
Oct 25 13:12:35 <Riggwelter> mw: we do
Oct 25 13:12:40 <mw> do we?
Oct 25 13:12:46 <Riggwelter> we need
Oct 25 13:12:53 <mw> oh, yes. :)
Oct 25 13:13:01 <btimothy> a fake textbook one would be great!
Oct 25 13:13:19 <mw> there's a gnome-hello tarball on ftp.gnome.org
Oct 25 13:13:22 <mw> i'll look at packaging that
Oct 25 13:13:23 <jpr> yes
Oct 25 13:13:24 <Riggwelter> a useful test for the template actually :)
Oct 25 13:13:27 <jpr> i think its ancient
Oct 25 13:13:34 <mw> last updated in 2003
Oct 25 13:13:35 <jpr> mean as a starting base for development
Oct 25 13:13:45 <Riggwelter> mw: can you create it from the template - kill 2 birds with one stone
Oct 25 13:13:49 <mw> ok
Oct 25 13:13:56 <jpr> should we declare this action done?
Oct 25 13:14:02 <Riggwelter> nod
Oct 25 13:14:02 <jpr> and add a new action for samples?
Oct 25 13:14:12 * munki1 (n=munkii@217.54.184.58) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 13:14:14 <jpr> assuming that this will always need ongoing updates
Oct 25 13:14:40 <mw> right
Oct 25 13:15:11 <jpr> Riggwelter: are you satisfied from the community policy perspective?
Oct 25 13:15:16 <Riggwelter> very
Oct 25 13:15:29 <jpr> AI: create sample specs based on packaging policy (mw)
Oct 25 13:15:49 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - GNOME:Community policy status (Riggwelter) | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 13:15:56 <jpr> Riggwelter: go for it
Oct 25 13:16:06 <Riggwelter> Link: http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Community_Inclusion_Policy
Oct 25 13:16:06 <Riggwelter> As listed as an AI last week, we now link to the Packaging policy.
Oct 25 13:16:06 <Riggwelter> In light of that, I propose we say that this policy is complete (but may be amended in future)
Oct 25 13:16:06 <Riggwelter> The next step is a call to arms: If you have packages in GNOME:Community, please bring them up to code or, if they are obsolete, remove them.
Oct 25 13:16:06 <Riggwelter> (I'm in a baaadassss mood today)
Oct 25 13:16:45 <jpr> and feed the G:C beast!
Oct 25 13:16:57 <jpr> esp. if you have any packages you want considered for 11.0 proper
Oct 25 13:17:27 <jpr> AI: review current G:C packages (Riggwelter and other maintainers)
Oct 25 13:17:42 <jpr> feed Riggwelter and mw questions if there is any ambiguity
Oct 25 13:18:08 <jpr> thanks to sbrabec too for his old distro info
Oct 25 13:18:14 <Riggwelter> hear hear
Oct 25 13:18:31 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting in progress - Q & A | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME
Oct 25 13:18:37 <jpr> any other Q&A topics?
Oct 25 13:18:42 <jpr> s/topics/questions/
Oct 25 13:19:12 <jpr> seife: is https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=280354 a won't fix because /etc/bluetooth/hcid.conf will no longer be used?
Oct 25 13:19:18 <bugbot> openSUSE bug 280354 in openSUSE 11.0 (GNOME) "YaST Bluetooth Configuration "Device Name" not reflected in Bluetooth-Applet "Adapter Name"" [Major,New]
Oct 25 13:19:36 <seife> without looking at it: yes :-)
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Oct 25 13:20:08 <jpr> seife: ok
Oct 25 13:20:09 <seife> "will no longer be used" is not totally correct. It will be used, as long as the user does not change anything in the applet (if i understand it correctly).
Oct 25 13:20:25 <jpr> ok, so its intentional
Oct 25 13:20:27 <seife> But yes, yast bluetooth will hopefully vanish soon, and then everything will be good :-)=
Oct 25 13:20:31 * wberrier (i=wberrier@nat/novell/x-a2dd7d3e196cce43) has joined #opensuse-gnome
Oct 25 13:20:34 <Riggwelter> yay
Oct 25 13:20:57 <seife> i just want to talk to the maintainer before filing a droprequest, that's better style :-)
Oct 25 13:21:02 <jpr> seife: and by default it won't exist then since yast2-bluetooth wont
Oct 25 13:21:08 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 13:21:21 <seife> hcid.conf will exist, but it will contain a default configuration from the package.
Oct 25 13:21:27 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 13:21:30 <seife> And Marcel's default configuration works.
Oct 25 13:21:52 <seife> It will probably vanish upstream sooner or later, because all users do with it is break their setup :-)
Oct 25 13:22:00 <jpr> other questions?
Oct 25 13:22:01 <seife> NEVER TOUCH hcid.conf !!1!
Oct 25 13:22:13 <Riggwelter> what, never? ;)
Oct 25 13:22:29 <jpr> seife: i guess the machine name won't be in the default config then?
Oct 25 13:22:32 <seife> unless you know what you are doing. I don't :-)
Oct 25 13:22:37 <Riggwelter> lol
Oct 25 13:22:38 <jpr> LAST CALL FOR QUESTIONS
Oct 25 13:22:43 <wberrier> :)
Oct 25 13:22:46 <seife> it is. it is "%h" or something like that.
Oct 25 13:22:54 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 13:23:15 <jpr> seife: i think the point of that bug is that it was confusing to change it in the applet (and have it updated)
Oct 25 13:23:21 <seife> name "BlueZ %h (%d)";
Oct 25 13:23:22 <jpr> but not have it written out
Oct 25 13:23:36 <seife> Yes. That's why Yast bluetooth must die.
Oct 25 13:23:38 <jpr> but if that file is the set of *defaults* that makes sense
Oct 25 13:23:53 <seife> It is written out, just in /var/lib/bluetooth/$BADDR/...
Oct 25 13:24:07 <jpr> ok
Oct 25 13:24:12 <seife> I will also try to update the comments in hcid.conf.
Oct 25 13:24:36 <jpr> THANK YOU ALL THIS MEETING IS DONE LIKE DINNER
Oct 25 13:24:38 * jpr has changed the topic to: Meeting over - archives up soon | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME/Meetings/20071025 | http://en.opensuse.org/GNOME