[21:37] Scotty: I'm a bit confused about the new idea for our promotions.
[21:37] Ben: How so?
[21:39] Scotty: Well ... it was never about power ... well, at least not for me. My prime reason for hating the segregation was that we weren't able to give input on things that I felt we should, and that wasn't even my primary concern. From what I've heard this new thing doesn't address the problems within the docteam at all. Our primary concern will still be documentations, meaning that all that's happening is a few new forums.
[21:40] Scotty: I'm trying not to sound ungrateful. I'm ungodly ungrateful for this, for even discussing it ... it's just ... not what I was thinking based on things I've been told.
[21:40] Scotty: Hence confusion.
[21:41] Ben: I'm not following.
[21:41] Ben: I don't know what you've been told
[21:41] Scotty: The biggest problem seems to be a perceived disparity between the Doc Team and Moderator/Support teams and thus levels of respect
[21:41] Scotty: n order to help fix this we’re planning on adjusting the Doc Teams access levels to make them a third staff group. This would mean that they have access to the same forums that the pinks and blues do.
[21:41] Ben: Okay
[21:42] Ben: Now that I know we're on the same page
[21:42] Ben: I'm still confused
[21:42] Ben: Why don't you like this plan?
[21:43] Scotty: Because my unhappiness was not caused by the segregation. That came later once I knew everyone was willing to change. My primary concern has always been being on the doc team. I've discussed this with you a couple times, I think. I don't like having to pick up so much slack. I felt I was forced to so we could get away from doing that as soon as possible.
[21:44] Scotty: I have never once cared if I had moderation powers or not. Other than tickets, I've never wanted much more power than what I have already. I just don't want to do what I've been doing anymore. And I can't just stop, because I always feel like if I do this then it'll be done and that's one step closer to not having to do it anymore.
[21:44] Ben: You done?
[21:45] Scotty: yeah, sorry. just trying to convey what I mean. Not at all trying to complain here, just get an understanding.
[21:45] Ben: No, I was just making sure before I answer :D
[21:45] Scotty: okay
[21:45] Ben: The solution that Brian presented is not the one that Stephen and I originally proposed, but I think it is an acceptable solution nonetheless.
[21:46] Ben: You're unhappy with the way the docteam works right now--it's broken. You do most of the work. There's little sense of progress. So we need to fix it, one step at a time.
[21:46] Ben: The first thing to do is try to get rid of the tension and drama floating around the staff room.
[21:47] Scotty: But the point I'm trying to make is that my tension and drama is caused by the brokenness.
[21:47] Scotty: What happened to Stephen's second plan? The entire staff taking on docs?
[21:47] Scotty: I thought that was a great idea.
[21:47] Ben: Dunno
[21:47] Ben: Fixing the tension and drama is part and parcel of fixing the brokenness
[21:48] Ben: When Brian was discussing this idea with me I made it clear that we needed to actually address the docteam itself and not just its role as staff
[21:48] Ben: He doesn't really talk about that much in detail in that topic, but I'm going to keep poking him
[21:50] Scotty: The thing Stephen told me about -- promoting us, and completing the documentation as a whole as well as supporting and moderating as a whole (thus being a team), seemed to solve every problem I can see. Equality, overworking, segregation, not enjoying current designated duty (sani, for instance).
[21:50] Scotty: I'm not understanding what this plan is meant to solve.
[21:50] Ben: This part is supposed to solve the "docteam aren't really staff" problem
[21:52] Scotty: Why is he so intent on keeping us away from real staff groups? Regardless of what we label it, I honestly think that the doc team will never be considered equals.
[21:52] Ben: -_-
[21:52] Scotty: I'ms orry
[21:52] Ben: I really can't win, eh?
[21:52] Scotty: I'm just trying to get my feelings across. I thought that's what was wanted?
[21:52] Scotty: better communication and everything
[21:53] Ben: So far it seems like no solution we propose seems to satisfy
[21:53] Scotty: fine, nevermind. I'm being difficult. You guys have it under control, we'll see where this thign goes.
[21:53] Ben: No, I didn't say that.
[21:53] Ben: I'm just pointing out that there's no such thing as a perfect solution, and there will never be a complete solution.
[21:54] Ben: You need to come to terms with the fact that we are here and there is no going back; all we can do is trudge forward through the mess we've made.
[21:54] Scotty: I honestly see the thing I mentioned earlier, Stephen's second plan, as very close to a complete solution.
[21:54] Ben: Not really.
[21:54] Ben: I for one would not document anything and you know that :p
[21:54] Scotty: sigh
[21:55] Scotty: I'm done. You're probably right. I can't bring you around to my way of thinking, so we'll see where this goes.
[21:58] Ben: That's all I want--to do something, try it, and see where it gets us. Maybe I'm wrong and it'll all blow up in our face. But at least we tried. And I will do what is necessary to 1) make sure that this is not a nominal promotion and b) make sure this is not where it stops.
[21:59] Scotty: This is nothing but a nominal promotion. All this solves is how we look to the public. We will never be looked at as true staff because we're being promoted to make us feel better, not to solve the issue.
[22:00] Ben: I disagree, but I think that if you take that position then it will be that to you. If you take it as a real promotion then that's what it can be.
[22:02] Scotty: But it's not real! Sani's whole equality thing was because he wants to do tickets. I had no problem looking at Jay, Stephen, etc. as my superiors. I don't care about status, Ben. You can change our group name to the not-full-staffers group, I could care less, and I'm really thinking that Sani and Nic could care less too. I honestly think the biggest issue is how the documentations are handled, which is why I liked Stephen's idea. Either of them, really. The first wouldn't have been perfect because there's not a lot of good writers out there that want the position, but it could happen.
[22:03] Ben: I'm not discounting that
[22:04] Ben: That's why I included that shiny little point b) above. I know this isn't where it stops and this isn't the heart of the problem. But I can't fix how the documentations are handled right now--I can fix this. So I'll fix this now and then keep on pushing.
[22:04] Ben: What I would like from you, though, is some more ideas.
[22:04] Ben: Because I'm honestly not sure how to fix that :-/
[22:04] Ben: Like, do we need to hire more docteam staff who will be active?
[22:04] Ben: Do you need a task list that isn't defunct?
[22:05] Scotty: We hire more people we're bound to drop in quality, but all the same the activity in writing isn't going to increase. Sani and Pete aren't going to doc. Potter's not going to stop being busy. Nic will do her share.
[22:05] Ben: I also told Brian to fire Pete
[22:06] Scotty: Once more, I implore to you that I am not interested about status, power, or anything. I just want the stress off of me. Considering the other two admins are hellbent on keeping us from real staff groups and working as a team, I have no idea on how to fix it.
[22:06] Ben: Oh, I know
[22:07] Ben: But if I said, "let's make the staff equal but give the docteam no power" that wouldn't be equality :p
[22:07] Ben: So you're getting power whether you like it or not!!
[22:07] Scotty: As long as we're a separate group, we will never be equal, which is why this step seems so silly to me.
[22:07] Scotty: We can say it until the cows come home.
[22:07] Scotty: We can have all the same abilities.
[22:07] Scotty: But we will not be considered equal.
[22:07] Ben: What do you mean "never be equal"? This implies someone is not going to be considering you equal. To whom are you referring?
[22:07] Scotty: We will not be free to switch between staff groups, for instance.
[22:08] Scotty: No one imparticular, and no one would do it on purpose.
[22:08] Ben: What gives you that idea?
[22:08] Scotty: Because then we'd just skip this step and be promoted to where we want to go!
[22:08] Scotty: Which seems logical in my eyes, but hey.
[22:08] Ben: No, because switching staff groups doesn't work that way for any one
[22:09] Scotty: Seth has told me several times the commies and support team members are free to switch.
[22:09] Ben: Seth isn't around anymore :p
[22:10] Ben: I'm an easygoing go, and given the group we've got right now I don't see why I wouldn't let someone switch.
[22:10] Scotty: except for us ;)
[22:11] Ben: I would be fine with letting you switch
[22:11] Ben: But then we'd have no docteam
[22:11] Scotty: like we have much of one right now
[22:12] Ben: That's what I'm trying to fix -_-
[22:12] Ben: Which is why I asked you for suggestions
[22:12] Ben: Because I don't know how to fix it :-/
[22:12] Ben: I still want to liquidate the docteam >_<
[22:12] Ben: Because I don't know how to handle a "docteam".
[22:12] Scotty: I gave you my suggestion, adopt Stephen's plan, let the doc team's agenda be everyone's agenda and let us work as two groups on everything.
[22:12] Ben: And I'm scared.
[22:13] Scotty: Loona will help, as well Jay and Dennis. Stephen would probably do a couple, Kezzie could help. Hell, PhranK was pretty good at it back in the day.
[22:15] Ben: I see your point. And I agree that it would a better solution. But if I take that stance right now (and you know, I never thought I would say this about anything, so here is me swallowing my pride) it probably wouldn't happen. Brandon and Brian talked and came up with the current solution, which means that somehow they decided that the alternative, liquidating the docteam, wasn't a solution. :-/ I can't change their minds on that right now--if I took the time to do that, then the situation would stay as it is for weeks more while they talk and I poke.
[22:15] Ben: At least by doing this, we're doing something instead of talking about it.
[22:15] Ben: I can't promise more, but I will keep poking further until something happens.
[22:15] Ben: Or until I leave...
[22:16] Scotty: I understand that, which is why I came to you instead of Brandon. But after we "know about it" I'm talking to them.
[22:16] Ben: Go for it
[22:16] Scotty: I don't understand why they have to bastardize the concept of teamwork.
[22:16] Ben: I hate having to go to Brian and say, "I think Scotty thinks so and such"
[22:16] Ben: Because 1) I don't know what you think, only what I interpret as what you tell me, which can be completely wrong and b) I'm not assertive enough to do that (as today obviously evidences)
[22:17] Ben: And I'm not sure when we turned into the IFSZ but I don't like it.