#n

Jun 30 22:54:05 <Atilla> Oh, gods, a Runescape vs Pokemon thread?
Jun 30 22:54:21 <Skyline> I don't even want to look at that.
Jun 30 22:54:25 <KinGAleX> There is no way Runescape can win.
Jun 30 22:54:26 <LittleViking> Whoa, whoa, there are Vista-only games?
Jun 30 22:54:31 <LittleViking> And Halo 2 is one of them?
Jun 30 22:54:33 <KinGAleX> Yeah, Microsoft's released some.
Jun 30 22:54:37 <LittleViking> Crap that.
Jun 30 22:54:38 <Atilla> It's going to be battle of the pre-teen geeky fanboys.
Jun 30 22:54:41 <KinGAleX> Pieces of trash they are.
Jun 30 22:54:46 <Atilla> Didn't you know, LV?
Jun 30 22:54:53 <TheSeer> Pokemon > Runescape.
Jun 30 22:54:54 <KinGAleX> Atilla: What, pray tell, is pre-teen about Pokémon?
Jun 30 22:54:57 <TheSeer> Everything > Runescape.
Jun 30 22:55:13 <Atilla> DirectX 10 will also be Vista-only.
Jun 30 22:55:24 <Skyline> Everything > Runescape > Dungeons and Dragons > Jumping Castle.
Jun 30 22:55:28 <Atilla> Hmm? A large portion of its fan base, KA.
Jun 30 22:55:51 <KinGAleX> I suppose.
Jun 30 22:55:57 <Atilla> Much of the merchandising reflects this.
Jun 30 22:56:05 <KinGAleX> That doesn't mean that everyone who enjoys Pokémon is pre-teen.
Jun 30 22:56:26 <KinGAleX> And I'm guessing a lot of people who wouldn't consider themselves part of either fan base would prefer Pokémon.
Jun 30 22:56:32 * ortseam (dismissively): demographics.
Jun 30 22:56:39 <Atilla> No, of course not. The games are actually reasonably good RPGs.
Jun 30 22:56:48 <KinGAleX> Word.
Jun 30 22:57:08 <KinGAleX> There are just a lot of teen and post-teen Pokémon players on the forums.
Jun 30 22:57:17 <KinGAleX> See the Metanet Pokémon League thread.
Jun 30 22:57:32 <Atilla> But the most enthusiastic fans - those who are most likely to get caught up in a Runescape vs Pokemon thread - are probably tending towards the younger demographics.
Jun 30 22:57:32 <Skyline> I thought that was just a joke about pokemon O_o
Jun 30 22:57:42 <Atilla> Mmm, I haven't looked at it.
Jun 30 22:57:58 <Atilla> It was popular with young teens too, back in the day.
Jun 30 22:58:13 <KinGAleX> Caught up in, yes, but the ones to give the most valuable opinions would be the older players.
Jun 30 22:58:21 <Atilla> I suppose many of them are old teens or adults, now.
Jun 30 22:58:23 <KinGAleX> More experience both in gaming and life.
Jun 30 22:58:34 <KinGAleX> Yes, I was a Pokéfreak, so to speak.
Jun 30 22:58:50 <KinGAleX> So I have a history of fanboyism towards it.
Jun 30 22:59:02 <KinGAleX> Just doesn't mean that I was or am an idiot.
Jun 30 22:59:05 <Atilla> Yes, but they will make one or two sensible posts, before retreating from the cries of "POKEMANS ARE FOR LIEK LOSERS YOU LAMZORS."
Jun 30 22:59:06 <KinGAleX> I merely enjoyed something a lot.
Jun 30 22:59:18 <KinGAleX> Yeah, I suppose.
Jun 30 22:59:34 <KinGAleX> Pretty silly thread, in any case.
Jun 30 23:00:07 <Atilla> Like the way people post something which approximates to "You're all silly, you realise." in OS War threads, then never look at them again.
Jun 30 23:01:09 <KinGAleX> I wonder if people are most comfortable with the OS they used the most in their life.
Jun 30 23:01:40 <KinGAleX> Like, I don't know if I hate Vista because it really is terrible (and I think it is), or whether I hate it because it's needlessly different from XP (in my opinion).
Jun 30 23:02:03 <KinGAleX> I think if you totalled up the number of hours I've spent on a computer in my life, the majority would be using XP.
Jun 30 23:02:06 <Skyline> I don't mind Vista that much.
Jun 30 23:02:12 <KinGAleX> That said, I'm not at all against Mac.
Jun 30 23:02:21 <KinGAleX> I just don't have that kind of money.
Jun 30 23:03:02 <KinGAleX> I think the rate at which things become obsolete is a real problem within this culture.
Jun 30 23:03:12 <KinGAleX> Faster turnovers just lead to faster and faster turnovers.
Jun 30 23:03:12 * Atilla has quit (Ping timeout)
Jun 30 23:03:15 <LittleViking> I see Vista as an upgrade I don't need. I'd rather buy more Ram and a better video card and still have money left over, than upgrade to Vista.
Jun 30 23:03:22 <KinGAleX> I'm guessing at some point we'll go into a societal regression
Jun 30 23:03:27 <KinGAleX> Yes, precisely.
Jun 30 23:03:59 <LittleViking> I think on the upgrade list, Vista comes just after processor, which I don't see myself upgrading for at least two more years.
Jun 30 23:04:05 <Skyline> Societal regression? Interesting.
Jun 30 23:04:06 <KinGAleX> Hehe.
Jun 30 23:04:14 <KinGAleX> I would think so, yes.
Jun 30 23:04:20 <KinGAleX> The consumer won't be able to keep up with production.
Jun 30 23:04:22 <KinGAleX> At the rate we're going.
Jun 30 23:04:29 <KinGAleX> Except for those in the very high economic brackets.
Jun 30 23:04:44 <Skyline> It definitely shows with Vista and the iphone.
Jun 30 23:04:45 <KinGAleX> Especially since most large economies are tailored towards the high economic brackets governmentally.
Jun 30 23:05:02 <KinGAleX> Private enterprise will be its own downfall.
Jun 30 23:05:59 <KinGAleX> But you see, once it gets to the point where instantly on release of Vista, all subsidiaries need Vista to run, people will not be able to handle it.
Jun 30 23:06:04 * Atilla (atilla@private-15C3C8D3.dialup.tpgi.com.au) has joined #n
Jun 30 23:06:05 > KinGAleX gives voice to Atilla
Jun 30 23:06:20 <KinGAleX> We're lucky that most things won't require Vista for years yet.
Jun 30 23:06:24 <Skyline> Interesting.
Jun 30 23:06:26 <KinGAleX> But I'm guessing that time will close in.
Jun 30 23:06:45 <KinGAleX> And of course, there's always the upper limit of processing power.
Jun 30 23:06:53 <KinGAleX> Without harnessing black holes, and such.
Jun 30 23:06:54 <Atilla> Yeah.
Jun 30 23:07:01 <Atilla> Stupid planned obsolescence.
Jun 30 23:07:04 <KinGAleX> And even then, there'll be an upper limit of everything.
Jun 30 23:07:11 <Atilla> Black holes?
Jun 30 23:07:16 <KinGAleX> Yeah, I've just been bitching about it, Atilla.
Jun 30 23:07:25 * solary (Solarion@private-9C395F6B.thoms1.vic.optusnet.com.au) has joined #n
Jun 30 23:07:25 > KinGAleX gives voice to solary
Jun 30 23:07:26 <Atilla> I'd be thinking more along the lines of quantum computing, personally.
Jun 30 23:07:30 <KinGAleX> Uh, people have theorised that black holes could be used as mass storage devices.
Jun 30 23:07:34 <Skyline> I guess we'll eventually see what happens.
Jun 30 23:07:40 <Skyline> Are.. you kidding, KA?
Jun 30 23:07:43 <KinGAleX> Heh. Mass storage devices.
Jun 30 23:07:44 <Atilla> Hmm.
Jun 30 23:07:47 <KinGAleX> If you take that literally, it's funnier.
Jun 30 23:07:54 <KinGAleX> No, I'm not kidding.
Jun 30 23:08:06 <Atilla> Yeah, I was all "Does he mean literally, or...?"
Jun 30 23:08:16 <Skyline> I'd like to see somebody pull that off.
Jun 30 23:08:18 <Atilla> "How do you get the mass back out?"
Jun 30 23:08:20 <KinGAleX> Heh.
Jun 30 23:08:28 <Skyline> Haha.
Jun 30 23:08:33 <KinGAleX> I doubt you will, Skyline.
Jun 30 23:08:38 <Atilla> Anyway, I think QC is more likely in the short term.
Jun 30 23:08:42 <KinGAleX> Yeah.
Jun 30 23:08:47 <KinGAleX> Likely and pointless.
Jun 30 23:08:49 <Skyline> Oh, I'll get on it right now.
Jun 30 23:08:58 * Skyline goes off and develops a black hole storage device
Jun 30 23:09:07 <KinGAleX> I think computing is at a prime state at the moment.
Jun 30 23:09:10 <Skyline> Ok, first I need to find a black hole.
Jun 30 23:09:18 <KinGAleX> Realistically, there's not much you can't do, that you could use a computer for.
Jun 30 23:09:59 <KinGAleX> But people have that thing about better graphics.
Jun 30 23:10:05 <KinGAleX> Better graphics this, better graphics that.
Jun 30 23:10:07 <Skyline> I think the forums died again.
Jun 30 23:10:11 <KinGAleX> Such a sensate experience.
Jun 30 23:10:25 <KinGAleX> I think intuitives are much more interested in gameplay.
Jun 30 23:10:50 <Atilla> Hmm? What's pointless about QC?
Jun 30 23:11:27 <KinGAleX> As I just said, I think computing is at a prime state at the moment.
Jun 30 23:11:38 <KinGAleX> I don't think there's any real need for anything to run faster.
Jun 30 23:11:50 <KinGAleX> I realise faster is a huge societal want.
Jun 30 23:11:57 <KinGAleX> But it's kind of pulling us along with it.
Jun 30 23:12:02 <Atilla> Bah. You, sir, are obviously not involved in physics research.
Jun 30 23:12:20 <KinGAleX> Yeah, physics research is also pretty pointless.
Jun 30 23:12:28 <Infernus> Haha
Jun 30 23:12:40 <Atilla> Not as pointless as whatever your profession is!
Jun 30 23:12:40 <KinGAleX> At least until the society is in a state where it can handle the implications nondestructively.
Jun 30 23:13:16 <Atilla> See, the reason people are destructive is they think everything is pointless, then decide to blow it up.
Jun 30 23:13:31 <Atilla> Your kind will be the death of humanity.
Jun 30 23:13:40 <KinGAleX> I don't think everything is pointless.
Jun 30 23:13:40 <Skyline> But blowing things up is fun sometimes...
Jun 30 23:13:59 <KinGAleX> I think most things are pointless at the moment, because our society is not in a state to handle most progressions.
Jun 30 23:14:03 <KinGAleX> 'Progressions'.
Jun 30 23:14:12 <Atilla> Anyway, we need physics research because eventually we'll manage to screw the planet horribly, and being able to stay on Mars for a few years while we fix it would be handy.
Jun 30 23:14:25 <Skyline> Haha.
Jun 30 23:14:41 <KinGAleX> But we wouldn't need physics research if our societies were able to understand why it's not really a good idea to screw the planet.
Jun 30 23:14:46 <Atilla> If we do not progress from the current state, we will merely stagnate rather than becoming ready for said progressions.
Jun 30 23:14:54 <KinGAleX> You're planning for a worst-case scenario, and allowing it to happen by planning for it.
Jun 30 23:15:12 <Atilla> I'm planning for a realistic scenario.
Jun 30 23:15:36 <KinGAleX> And it doesn't need to be realistic if instead of planning for it, attempted to prevent it from happening.
Jun 30 23:15:41 <Atilla> There are also non-human-caused threats, such as rogue asteroids.
Jun 30 23:15:55 <KinGAleX> I think that's a pretty fine way to go out.
Jun 30 23:16:06 <KinGAleX> But it wouldn't be such a big issue if we weren't ridiculously overpopulated.
Jun 30 23:16:11 <Atilla> I would prefer not to go out at all.
Jun 30 23:16:57 <KinGAleX> I suppose I would too.
Jun 30 23:17:05 <Atilla> Anyway, research could lead to more efficient tools, thus decreasing human environmental impact.
Jun 30 23:17:13 <KinGAleX> But if being scared of dying is preventing /real/ societal change, that's a problem in and of itself.
Jun 30 23:17:28 <Skyline> Imagine the sheer chaos that would happen if we discovered that a fatal asteroid would hit the Earth the next month
Jun 30 23:17:29 <KinGAleX> We could also decrease human environmental impact by getting the fuck over tools.
Jun 30 23:17:39 <Atilla> It could also lead to development of superior energy sources.
Jun 30 23:17:50 <KinGAleX> You're trying to deal with problems we have by planning for what they will become.
Jun 30 23:18:01 <KinGAleX> Rather than combatting them where they stand and trying to help people realise the problems.
Jun 30 23:18:12 <Atilla> That is because problems are not static.
Jun 30 23:18:45 <Atilla> The speed with which we may act is limited, particularly when current social attitudes prevent immediate action.
Jun 30 23:18:50 <KinGAleX> But you're so preoccupied with trying to help out the future when you could be helping out the present AND the future!
Jun 30 23:18:57 <KinGAleX> Exactly!
Jun 30 23:19:06 * Blizzard has quit (Quit: Logic is your friend, use it.)
Jun 30 23:19:09 <KinGAleX> That's why we need to address the social attitudes before the problems can be successfully addressed.
Jun 30 23:19:31 <Atilla> Support for research does not impede addressing of social attitudes.
Jun 30 23:20:17 <Atilla> If you plan for the worst, and it does not eventuate, the result is still positive.
Jun 30 23:20:17 <KinGAleX> It impedes the possibility of a larger effort for the addressing of social attitudes.
Jun 30 23:20:29 <KinGAleX> And wasteful.
Jun 30 23:20:34 <Atilla> If you plan for the best and it does not eventuate, the result is disasterous.
Jun 30 23:21:36 <Atilla> Research does not impede the addresing of social issues.
Jun 30 23:21:41 <KinGAleX> That's because in this idiotically fast-paced world where no one nation knows what any other one nation is up to, there's such a huge variety of things to plan for that we lose sight of what we can do now to make it better.
Jun 30 23:21:44 <Atilla> The resources required are different.
Jun 30 23:21:57 <KinGAleX> Research requires people with a certain type of mind.
Jun 30 23:22:12 <KinGAleX> Those people with a certain type of mind can usually agree enough on something to help another part of society to agree with them on that.
Jun 30 23:22:48 <KinGAleX> If all you're doing is clearing up the present's future mess, you won't ever progress from being janitors!
Jun 30 23:23:36 <Atilla> Such people have been attempting to convince others of the need to act on current issues with limited success. Eliminating research will not help.
Jun 30 23:23:40 <KinGAleX> You should be striving to make the world realise that if it all thought a certain way, it wouldn't need you as janitors, and you could actually do useful things that weren't merely reactions to what's currently happening.
Jun 30 23:24:07 <Atilla> I also point out that research increases our understanding of the problems we have at present and the possible solutions.
Jun 30 23:24:36 <KinGAleX> Not all research.
Jun 30 23:24:39 <Atilla> You demand immediate solutions, without the ability to implement them.
Jun 30 23:24:58 <Atilla> You demand action, without knowing what actions are necessary.
Jun 30 23:24:59 <solary> Watching this discussion, I start up the last.FM radio, and what song comes up but "The sixth extinction crept up slowly, like sunlight through the shutters as we looked back in regret".
Jun 30 23:25:00 <KinGAleX> Because not enough people are willing to see that if they can come to some sort of agreement, they'll have the ability to implement them.
Jun 30 23:25:36 <KinGAleX> Everyone needs to sit the fuck down, drop what they're doing, and think for a little while.
Jun 30 23:25:59 <KinGAleX> Or we'll just continue down this same path.
Jun 30 23:26:11 <KinGAleX> Applying bandaids every now and then to a growing wound.
Jun 30 23:26:20 <KinGAleX> Eventually, something's going to drop off.
Jun 30 23:26:42 <KinGAleX> I really think you're too cautious about this.
Jun 30 23:27:00 <KinGAleX> You don't have enough faith in the human race to think that if enough people got together and thought the same way, things could happen.
Jun 30 23:27:25 <KinGAleX> It happened with the Nazis, in a way that negatively affected the human race, but it happened, didn't it?
Jun 30 23:27:40 <Atilla> No, I have enough pattern recognition to realise that humanity as a whole will never think the same way.
Jun 30 23:28:03 <Atilla> Nazism is not comparable to current concerns.
Jun 30 23:28:15 <KinGAleX> The problem is that the only people who are willing to see eye-to-eye on those sorts of societal issues generally don't come from a place where they can be psychologically healthy enough to be free thinkers.
Jun 30 23:28:30 <Atilla> Unless you suggest that we supress opposition by force.
Jun 30 23:28:37 <KinGAleX> No, that's ridiculous.
Jun 30 23:28:49 * Kwiftee has quit (Ping timeout)
Jun 30 23:29:08 <KinGAleX> I'm only comparing our current concern to Nazism in that we need a lot of people to think the same way and enact societal change with it to a large effect.
Jun 30 23:29:12 <Atilla> The problem is that too many people benefit from maintaining the stasis quo.
Jun 30 23:29:17 * Skyline has quit (Quit: )
Jun 30 23:29:26 <KinGAleX> Definitely.
Jun 30 23:29:54 <KinGAleX> But we've set ourselves up for that.
Jun 30 23:30:18 <KinGAleX> And we'll just continue to keep being our own downfall.
Jun 30 23:32:07 <Atilla> When you say that that we have set ourselves up for thiat, do you have an alternative arrangement?
Jun 30 23:32:31 <Atilla> All human systems are flawed. Complete elimination of corruption is impossible.
Jun 30 23:32:40 <KinGAleX> I think not.
Jun 30 23:33:19 <Atilla> Your proposal for a perfect system, then?
Jun 30 23:33:38 <KinGAleX> If everyone was able to be psychologically healthy to a point where their values are not inherently varied by the system, and if there weren't so many societies with so many differing values, people could actually agree on things.
Jun 30 23:34:22 <KinGAleX> But realistically, there aren't enough globalists and people who value psychology enough around at the moment for those to be enacted immediately.
Jun 30 23:34:31 <Atilla> A monoculture? But variety brings strength and adaptability.
Jun 30 23:34:34 * Borealis (Borealis@private-63017B55.lutn.cable.ntl.com) has joined #n
Jun 30 23:34:35 > KinGAleX gives voice to Borealis
Jun 30 23:34:39 <Borealis> OHMIGOD HALLO
Jun 30 23:34:46 <Atilla> Greetings.
Jun 30 23:34:49 <KinGAleX> I'm not talking about an entire monoculture, with no different tastes.
Jun 30 23:34:54 <ortseam> Wordz.
Jun 30 23:34:55 <KinGAleX> Merely similar or identical values.
Jun 30 23:35:08 <KinGAleX> That doesn't mean people can't have tastes.
Jun 30 23:35:15 <Atilla> Indentical values are unfeasible.
Jun 30 23:35:17 <LittleViking> Borealis is back!
Jun 30 23:35:20 <KinGAleX> Just that all of their inherent systems are attuned towards the survival of the human race.
Jun 30 23:35:44 <Borealis> Already the sexy increases by roughly 30%.
Jun 30 23:35:46 <KinGAleX> And not its eventual destruction, as they are presently.
Jun 30 23:36:05 <Atilla> Current systems are attuned towards short-term survival.
Jun 30 23:36:23 <KinGAleX> And short-term survival, in this case, denotes long-term destruction.
Jun 30 23:36:42 <Atilla> Failure to plan and realise the future ramifications of present actions have resulted in the problems which now attend us.
Jun 30 23:36:48 <KinGAleX> Which some people realise and are trying to stop by combatting the long-term destruction, rather than combatting the idea of short-term survival.
Jun 30 23:37:29 <Atilla> Yet you counsel action to prevent immediate problems without planning for the future, which you state is wasteful and detrimental to efforts to halt immediate issues.
Jun 30 23:37:46 <KinGAleX> Planning for the future we have created is wasteful.
Jun 30 23:38:00 <KinGAleX> Planning for the future we will have if the short-term survival ideology is combatted is not wasteful at all.
Jun 30 23:38:14 <KinGAleX> Because it will be a plan with less variables, and much less need for certain types of planning.
Jun 30 23:38:58 <Atilla> Failure to recognise that your own efforts may fail is poor planning.
Jun 30 23:39:23 <Atilla> A wise general plans for a retreat as well as a victory celebration.
Jun 30 23:39:51 <KinGAleX> That's because humanity as a whole can't have enough faith in itself with its distribution as is.
Jun 30 23:40:21 <Atilla> When it is almost certain that current efforts will succeed, then planning for failure may be halted.
Jun 30 23:40:23 <KinGAleX> There would be no need for that kind of pessimism if everyone was actually able to work together towards a common goal.
Jun 30 23:41:01 <Atilla> Nevertheless, the current reality is that everyone is not able to work together towards a common goal.
Jun 30 23:41:24 <KinGAleX> Which is therefore obviously one of the things that most needs to be combatted.
Jun 30 23:41:28 <Atilla> Therefore, "that kind of pessimism" is justified.
Jun 30 23:41:48 <KinGAleX> Planning for the current future is merely delaying the inevitable, if you continue to do it with that as your reasoning.
Jun 30 23:42:24 <KinGAleX> If you were instead working towards a community where there would be no inevitable to delay, 'important matters' would be entirely different things.
Jun 30 23:42:31 <Atilla> Planning for all futures is seeking the best while making provisions to deal with the worst should it come.
Jun 30 23:42:42 * ortseam is now known as maestro
Jun 30 23:42:45 <KinGAleX> Bullshit it is.
Jun 30 23:42:54 <KinGAleX> The planning we're doing at the moment is seeking the best if we leave things as they are.
Jun 30 23:43:05 <KinGAleX> We need to combat things as they are so that the best is an entirely better thing.
Jun 30 23:43:28 <Atilla> We need to combat things as they are while planning for the possibility that we fail.
Jun 30 23:43:37 <Infernus> Better than best?
Jun 30 23:43:45 <Atilla> Admitting your own fallibility is a part of good planning.
Jun 30 23:43:45 <KinGAleX> No, not better than best.
Jun 30 23:43:47 <KinGAleX> A new standard for best.
Jun 30 23:43:59 <Infernus> I see.
Jun 30 23:44:18 <KinGAleX> Yes, but we wouldn't need to admit our own fallibility if we were all working towards an actual goal.
Jun 30 23:44:22 <Atilla> Delaying the inevitable then allows us another attempt to remove the inevitable.
Jun 30 23:44:44 <Atilla> Why not? Working towards a goal does not guarantee success.
Jun 30 23:44:53 <Infernus> It wouldn't be inevitable then would it?
Jun 30 23:44:56 <KinGAleX> The fallible aspects wouldn't weigh on the conclusion at all, if everyone had the same ideas.
Jun 30 23:45:11 <TS> ICE!
Jun 30 23:45:11 * kosmic (k@private-D4ABFD.tc.ph.cox.net) has joined #n
Jun 30 23:45:12 > KinGAleX gives voice to kosmic
Jun 30 23:45:13 <TS> CREAAAAAAAAM!
Jun 30 23:45:16 * kosmic (k@private-D4ABFD.tc.ph.cox.net) has left #n
Jun 30 23:45:17 <KinGAleX> Right, but we haven't done a very good job at trying to remove the inevitable, have we?
Jun 30 23:45:24 <KinGAleX> All we've done so far is delayed it.
Jun 30 23:45:29 <KinGAleX> I fail to see how in doing that, we will start to remove it at all.
Jun 30 23:45:33 <TS> Ah, another discussion of humanity's fate?
Jun 30 23:45:35 <KinGAleX> I'm proposing an actual removal of it right now!
Jun 30 23:45:48 <Atilla> Based on that reasoning, removing it has an extremely low chance of success.
Jun 30 23:46:05 <KinGAleX> With the current mindset, yes.
Jun 30 23:46:09 * solary has quit (Ping timeout)
Jun 30 23:46:12 <KinGAleX> Because we're all thinking we'll delay it now and deal with it later.
Jun 30 23:46:35 <KinGAleX> The chance of success would be greatly increased if we dropped that attitude and moved towards removing it already.
Jun 30 23:46:36 <Atilla> However, it may be delayed and dealt with at the same time.
Jun 30 23:46:57 <KinGAleX> Right, but that's not happening either.
Jun 30 23:47:08 <Atilla> However, it should be happening.
Jun 30 23:47:17 <KinGAleX> And it's not.
Jun 30 23:47:31 <Infernus> COMMON GROUND! How interesting.
Jun 30 23:47:40 <KinGAleX> Shoulds won't help us right now, because we need to actually do something now.
Jun 30 23:47:51 <Atilla> It negates your problem with planning for our failure, though.
Jun 30 23:47:51 <KinGAleX> Or we'll just keep saying should and not get down to it.
Jun 30 23:48:24 <Atilla> We should consider acting in both the present and the future.
Jun 30 23:48:35 <KinGAleX> We don't need to plan for our failure if our failure is better than our current best case scenario, with this focus on delaying the inevitable.
Jun 30 23:48:40 <Atilla> Currently we consider only the future.
Jun 30 23:48:50 <KinGAleX> Right, but we need to start acting in the present before we can come up with a coherent plan for the future.
Jun 30 23:48:52 <Atilla> Considering only the present is not an improvement.
Jun 30 23:49:28 <KinGAleX> There needs to be huge societal change in the present before the future that present can strive for is even able to be realised.
Jun 30 23:50:02 <Atilla> Nevertheless, we can plan for such a future, and several others, before this societal change occurs.
Jun 30 23:50:13 <KinGAleX> But that's so wasteful.
Jun 30 23:50:32 <KinGAleX> If we're planning for ten future, of which one is the one that will happen, we've got nine cases of waste there.
Jun 30 23:50:35 <Atilla> This will ensure the best possible transition in the event of our sucess and reduce the consequence should we fail.
Jun 30 23:50:50 <KinGAleX> And such low chances that the best one will actually occur.
Jun 30 23:51:49 <KinGAleX> I think we need to be less preoccupied with safety for the future, and more preoccupied with working on it right now.
Jun 30 23:51:59 <Atilla> Resources are of no use to the dead.
Jun 30 23:52:13 <Infernus> Zing!
Jun 30 23:52:16 <KinGAleX> But you think it's inevitable that this society will fail.
Jun 30 23:52:20 <Atilla> Should we succeed, it is unlikely that the waste will be a problem.
Jun 30 23:52:38 <Atilla> Should we fail, it was not wasted after all.
Jun 30 23:52:55 <KinGAleX> Yes, but we've failed.
Jun 30 23:52:58 <Atilla> I think it is a possibility that this society will fail.
Jun 30 23:53:07 <KinGAleX> So we used our resources alright, but we've still failed.
Jun 30 23:53:17 <KinGAleX> We need to take chances in the present to increase our chances of success in the future.
Jun 30 23:53:21 <Atilla> And because we planned for failure, we have another chance to succeed.
Jun 30 23:53:47 <Atilla> We can take present chances while still planning for both success and failure.
Jun 30 23:53:53 <KinGAleX> From a much worse position than where we started.
Jun 30 23:54:26 <Atilla> A worse position then where we started is preferable to having no chance at all.
Jun 30 23:54:28 <KinGAleX> We need our failure and success to be so alike that planning for one plans for both.
Jun 30 23:55:01 <KinGAleX> Right, but it's so safe. If we could have enacted change earlier and we didn't try hard enough because we were busy planning for the worst, it'll have all been in vain anyway.
Jun 30 23:56:03 <KinGAleX> Honestly, I don't think there's any point in planning for the worst. We'll just continue planning for the worst and eventually be left in a position where we can't get out of our spiral.
Jun 30 23:56:05 * Atilla has quit (Broken pipe)
Jun 30 23:56:10 <KinGAleX> Damn it.
Jun 30 23:56:25 * Atilla (atilla@private-15C3C8D3.dialup.tpgi.com.au) has joined #n
Jun 30 23:56:26 > KinGAleX gives voice to Atilla
Jun 30 23:56:27 <KinGAleX> Anyway, I'd rather take a huge chance now and bomb it than be left in an inevitable spiral of doom for the next few hundred years.
Jun 30 23:56:30 <Atilla> That is not feasible. If there is no difference between success and failure, you have defined one of them incorrectly.
Jun 30 23:56:46 <KinGAleX> Or are merely assured of success.
Jun 30 23:56:51 <KinGAleX> Which is defined by the possiblity of failure.
Jun 30 23:57:03 <KinGAleX> So your failure must be the same as your success, otherwise it can't exist.
Jun 30 23:57:23 <Atilla> If you are assured of sucess, there is no possibility of failure. Failure does not exist.
Jun 30 23:57:34 <KinGAleX> Oh this is riduclous.
Jun 30 23:57:37 <KinGAleX> ridiculous&
Jun 30 23:57:37 <KinGAleX> *
Jun 30 23:57:40 <KinGAleX> I need to have a fucking shower.
Jun 30 23:57:44 <KinGAleX> I'm going out in an hour.
Jun 30 23:57:51 <Atilla> A cold shower?
Jun 30 23:57:59 <KinGAleX> We've been arguing the same thing for the past hour.
Jun 30 23:58:08 <KinGAleX> I agree to disagree if you do.
Jun 30 23:58:14 <Atilla> A fact of which I am cognisant.
Jun 30 23:58:34 <Atilla> Very well.