Someone

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 26 22:33:13 2006

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Mar 26 22:38:40 *	SportChick is away: Sleeping.  Please leave a message :)
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Mar 26 23:04:07 BinarySpike	I've settup an iBZEdit IRC room at #ibzedit
Mar 26 23:04:33 BinarySpike	Just if you guys need to redirect ppl I'll try to be on it as much as I'm on my computer ;-)
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Mar 27 05:11:43 Alphax	are any special options required for the broadcast discovery mode to work on a local network, using 2.0.4 on Mac OS X ?
Mar 27 05:12:23 Alphax	it keeps telling me that it can't find the listserver - I don't want to contact the list server, I want it to use broadcast discovery!
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Mar 27 05:13:19 Alphax	should I be running bzfs seperately to bzflag itself?
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Mar 27 05:17:52 brlcad	Alphax: probably will be easier to just run bzfs directly -- it's inside the application bundle
Mar 27 05:18:02 Alphax	hrm ok
Mar 27 05:18:13 brlcad	check and make sure it's actually not already running  first
Mar 27 05:18:18 brlcad	ps auxwww|grep bzfs
Mar 27 05:18:19 Alphax	yeah
Mar 27 05:20:20 Alphax	is it normal that on a networked system I'd have trouble running bzflag from outside the disk image? eg. I copy it to my desktop and it claims the package is corrupt
Mar 27 05:20:42 Alphax	package/bundle, forget the exact wording
Mar 27 05:22:06 Alphax	hrm, I might come back when some more people are awake...
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Mar 27 07:25:37 Mr_Molez	CBG: what's happening
Mar 27 07:25:43 CBG	matching :)
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Mar 27 07:47:21 SportChick	learner: ping
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Mar 27 08:18:20 2006

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Mar 27 08:18:20 2006

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Mar 27 08:32:15 learner	SportChick: pong
Mar 27 08:32:30 menotume	laggy learna
Mar 27 08:32:38 learner	yeah
Mar 27 08:32:48 menotume	pretending to be working again
Mar 27 08:32:52 learner	cvs updates on cron
Mar 27 08:33:15 menotume	really, egads
Mar 27 08:35:29 learner	used to be every 10 minutes
Mar 27 08:35:32 learner	now just on the half hour
Mar 27 08:35:41 learner	keeps sources up to date automatically
Mar 27 08:35:58 menotume	sounds serious. maybe i should commit my plugin change
Mar 27 08:36:28 menotume	keeps bugs up to date automatically :)
Mar 27 08:36:34 learner	think we should plan for a release in a week or two 
Mar 27 08:36:44 menotume	yayness :)
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Mar 27 08:37:04 menotume	ok, gonna do some bzfs testing now (that double join event thing)
Mar 27 08:41:28 brlcad	if you have any show stoppers, or just things like that you'd like to get in, should put them in the TODO so we know when we're ready
Mar 27 08:42:17 menotume	gotya
Mar 27 08:42:18 CIA-3	BZFlag: menotume v2_0branch * bzflag/plugins/HoldTheFlag/ (CHANGELOG.txt HoldTheFlag.cpp): HoldTheFlag plugin: Fixed tie-break logic in scoring, added minor enhancements.
Mar 27 08:42:53 menotume	we're talking v20 branch, right ?
Mar 27 08:43:05 brlcad	right
Mar 27 08:43:15 brlcad	2.0.6 release
Mar 27 08:43:23 menotume	:)
Mar 27 08:47:27 |zongo|	hey all, i wanted to know if you are considering synchronised clocks for Dead Reckoning in some future version
Mar 27 08:48:33 menotume	it has been discussed
Mar 27 08:48:48 menotume	i think it's planned for v 6.0
Mar 27 08:48:50 |zongo|	(i am referring to the paper http://ww2.cs.fsu.edu/~banavar/accuracy.pdf for those who dont know what im talking about)
Mar 27 08:48:55 |zongo|	ah cool
Mar 27 08:48:56 menotume	approx realese, 2014
Mar 27 08:49:00 |zongo|	hehe
Mar 27 08:49:08 |zongo|	more seriously?
Mar 27 08:49:09 brlcad	|zongo|: quite
Mar 27 08:50:03 brlcad	more seriously, it's been discussed for years -- have lots of papers on the issue if you're interested
Mar 27 08:50:12 brlcad	and if you look at the end of that paper you referenced..
Mar 27 08:50:33 brlcad	right after the Conclusions section
Mar 27 08:50:54 |zongo|	yup, i sawe 
Mar 27 08:51:06 |zongo|	i saw the acknoledgments
Mar 27 08:51:25 |zongo|	i was just asking
Mar 27 08:51:27 brlcad	agarwaal has another paper that just came out recnetly too
Mar 27 08:51:43 brlcad	er, aggarwal
Mar 27 08:52:07 |zongo|	i just wanted to know if it's feasable or not
Mar 27 08:52:13 brlcad	completely feasible
Mar 27 08:52:17 |zongo|	and what are the issues
Mar 27 08:52:17 brlcad	and planned..
Mar 27 08:52:24 brlcad	just a matter of time to implement it
Mar 27 08:52:28 |zongo|	ah ok
Mar 27 08:52:32 *	Chestal is still a skeptic :-)
Mar 27 08:52:38 menotume	some logic should be moved to the server first, i would assume
Mar 27 08:52:43 |zongo|	and the code done by aggarwal & co?
Mar 27 08:52:46 brlcad	Chestal: you're always a skeptic
Mar 27 08:52:57 menotume	Chestal: that's why we like you :)
Mar 27 08:52:57 brlcad	did you read his new paper?  I think it was also acm
Mar 27 08:53:10 Chestal	I'm still all for doing a simulator in which to try these things
Mar 27 08:53:16 |zongo|	havent read the new one, gonna check it out
Mar 27 08:53:39 Chestal	no, I only read the above one. it does not lie, but it also does not say anything really interesting IMHO
Mar 27 08:54:00 |zongo|	it's worth a testing imo
Mar 27 08:54:24 menotume	wouldn't the path / movements of each tank need to be cahced for a short time (couple of seconds) ?
Mar 27 08:54:45 menotume	i would think it wouldn't work if they aren't
Mar 27 08:54:53 Chestal	it has to predict positions
Mar 27 08:55:21 Chestal	which is wrong each time the tank changes its course of course (with a simplistic prediction)
Mar 27 08:55:32 menotume	right, that's what i mean
Mar 27 08:55:45 menotume	you'd have to keep all those shcnges in DR
Mar 27 08:55:51 menotume	changes in DR
Mar 27 08:55:58 menotume	for a length of time
Mar 27 08:56:18 menotume	a couple of seconds, i would think
Mar 27 08:56:32 Chestal	well, most basic appraoch is to just add a dt (estimated lag) to DR algorithm
Mar 27 08:56:45 Chestal	which leads to discontinuities in path, though
Mar 27 08:56:45 menotume	eww
Mar 27 08:56:58 menotume	ya, talk about cheat accustaions :)
Mar 27 08:57:15 Chestal	but you cannot really avoid that problem
Mar 27 08:57:22 menotume	or the poor ME user who avoided a shot but gets killed anyway :)
Mar 27 08:57:29 Chestal	of course you coudlk say that predicted pos is the real pos
Mar 27 08:57:31 menotume	well, you could
Mar 27 08:57:51 menotume	but, kill detection would be delayed a bit
Mar 27 08:57:55 menotume	but, accurate
Mar 27 08:58:27 Chestal	I'm sure there are more advanced schemes, maybe some which try to level the disadvantages a bit over the players
Mar 27 08:58:33 Chestal	with simple scheme, laggy players suffer
Mar 27 08:58:42 menotume	let the laggers usffer !
Mar 27 08:58:45 menotume	hehe
Mar 27 08:58:59 *	Mr_Molez agrees
Mar 27 08:59:01 Chestal	the only network game with some kind of lag handling and prediction I ever used was armagetron
Mar 27 08:59:09 Chestal	and that sucked in this respect
Mar 27 08:59:31 Chestal	arguably, lag there is even more important than in bz
Mar 27 09:00:21 Chestal	should put some students to work on this :-)
Mar 27 09:00:51 |zongo|	yay ;)
Mar 27 09:01:00 menotume	I would think that if the server kept track of, let's say one second of tank movements/change of course, and those movments are timestamped in a syncrhonized time, that kill detection could be accurate
Mar 27 09:01:09 Chestal	I guess I could even find some who would like to work on that stuff
Mar 27 09:01:19 Chestal	but I don't think my prof would ike it
Mar 27 09:01:22 menotume	however, only withtin the window of how long movements are cached
Mar 27 09:01:54 menotume	Chestal ... change the scheme ... defense department, missles
Mar 27 09:02:09 menotume	global warfare emulation :)
Mar 27 09:02:14 |zongo|	hehe
Mar 27 09:02:21 Chestal	hmm, if I could turn it into a simulation-based optimization problem
Mar 27 09:02:22 menotume	automated trafiic control
Mar 27 09:02:52 menotume	ya, that's it, automated traffic control, each car having it's own 'cleint'
Mar 27 09:03:39 menotume	dunno how to eplain shots though :)
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Mar 27 09:09:39 Chestal	someone got a complex povray scene to render? Most of the submission to irtc don't have source, and those which do are too often just not working out of the box
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Mar 27 09:33:55 learner	I've uploaded the other DR papers I have to .bz for those interested
Mar 27 09:34:47 Tupone	hi learner 
Mar 27 09:34:48 learner	since some of them are not distributable, it's a protected page -- query me for access
Mar 27 09:34:58 learner	http://bzflag.bz/dead-reckoning/ is the place
Mar 27 09:35:02 learner	howdy Tupone
Mar 27 09:37:09 learner	the new ones are near the end
Mar 27 09:37:26 menotume	You Monkey You !
Mar 27 09:37:45 learner	oo oo ee ee
Mar 27 09:37:49 JBdiGriz	Let's not start the monkey business again
Mar 27 09:37:59 learner	~fling at JBdiGriz
Mar 27 09:38:01 *	ibot flings poo at JBdiGriz
Mar 27 09:38:20 *	JBdiGriz knew that was coming and took appropriate precautions
Mar 27 09:38:56 learner	been a couple good car chases in s.d. lately :)
Mar 27 09:39:43 JBdiGriz	Too many people misunderstand the Taco Bell ads "Runs for the border"
Mar 27 09:45:25 *	JeffM2501 wishes he could hear :(
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Mar 27 09:55:48 learner	fwiw, i believe p7 is aggarwal's new paper
Mar 27 09:56:34 |zongo|	learner, i'd like to have access to the papers about DR pls
Mar 27 09:56:40 >learner<	I tried to go to that link, but it seems to be protected
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Mar 27 10:16:46 |zongo|	cu all, thx for the DR discussion :)
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Mar 27 10:51:01 Tupone	purple_cow: any problem with CIA ?
Mar 27 10:51:39 JeffM2501	it was having problems yesterday
Mar 27 10:52:26 Tupone	ahh, well, even few minutes ago, on #gentoo-commits. but seems ok now
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Mar 27 12:05:54 randomparticle	hi mr molez
Mar 27 12:06:30 Mr_Molez	randomparticle: hey :)
Mar 27 12:06:31 randomparticle	was wondering... could you get around to writing that shot-deflecting code for your server? 
Mar 27 12:06:41 randomparticle	a bit of random spin, you know
Mar 27 12:06:46 randomparticle	just to liven things up ::)
Mar 27 12:06:48 Mr_Molez	shot - deflecting ?
Mar 27 12:07:15 randomparticle	no need to tell anyone. just give each shot a random impulse. they'll never suspect it
Mar 27 12:07:30 randomparticle	april the 1st would be a good day to go live with this
Mar 27 12:07:34 Mr_Molez	Uh I think this is the first I have heared about this ?
Mar 27 12:07:49 randomparticle	snicko here. how're'ya doing?
Mar 27 12:07:59 Mr_Molez	heheh hey :P
Mar 27 12:08:17 Mr_Molez	So tell me, what is this shot defecting code ?
Mar 27 12:08:35 randomparticle	just an idea 
Mar 27 12:09:01 randomparticle	you know, like those crazy golf balls with weights in them that make  them roll funny?
Mar 27 12:09:12 Mr_Molez	heh
Mar 27 12:09:34 Mr_Molez	for everyone elses bullets except yours right ;)
Mar 27 12:09:40 randomparticle	would be nice :)
Mar 27 12:09:43 Mr_Molez	hehe
Mar 27 12:10:14 CBG	as if *you* need any such advantage...
Mar 27 12:10:34 randomparticle	i'm afraid qd has taken a rather stern view of goings on at ducati-style, the old curmudgeon
Mar 27 12:10:45 Mr_Molez	I have noticed :)
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Mar 27 12:11:43 randomparticle	would've been rather more successful if he'd thought it through before floating the idea of nullifying goodness knows how many matches
Mar 27 12:12:15 Mr_Molez	I guess he is one of them that can't think straight when he is in a fit of rage :P
Mar 27 12:12:23 randomparticle	hehe
Mar 27 12:12:40 Mr_Molez	I have talked to him, he said he will consider allowing the server to play official matches when he learns to trust me again
Mar 27 12:12:42 CBG	Well, with Molies cheat clients, perhaps the d-s servers are cheat servers? :P
Mar 27 12:13:30 Mr_Molez	CBG: If I find anyone cheating on my servers their name will be given to the league admins and other server admins
Mar 27 12:13:45 CBG	Bah, read what I said again...
Mar 27 12:13:55 CBG	"cheat servers" ...
Mar 27 12:14:09 Mr_Molez	How can they be cheat servers If i dont allow cheaters ?
Mar 27 12:14:31 randomparticle	that's the point. in not allowing cheaters, you are cheating the cheaters
Mar 27 12:14:38 CBG	Not "servers that allow cheat clients", "cheat servers" as in "cheat clients"
Mar 27 12:14:49 CBG	""Modified"" Servers.
Mar 27 12:14:52 blast007	hacked server?  :)
Mar 27 12:14:53 Mr_Molez	oh
Mar 27 12:15:10 CBG	Oh, perhaps you just won't run it right.
Mar 27 12:15:14 randomparticle	could you write that backwards for improved intelligibility, cbg?
Mar 27 12:15:16 CBG	Maybe you have it set up wrong.
Mar 27 12:15:26 CBG	randomparticle?
Mar 27 12:15:42 randomparticle	just being silly, old chap :)
Mar 27 12:15:46 Mr_Molez	ah, well noone complained that anything was fishy about the server.. As for run right.. I gave most people admin rights for them to moderate it themselves
Mar 27 12:15:50 CBG	less of the old, randomparticle 
Mar 27 12:16:08 CBG	Mr_Molez: yeah, tell qd, not me :P
Mar 27 12:16:18 randomparticle	all except for qd? :)
Mar 27 12:16:36 Mr_Molez	CBG: I don't really care I don't play gu anyway :P
Mar 27 12:16:51 randomparticle	an inverse universe well everyone is an admin except the admins in the original universe?
Mar 27 12:17:00 randomparticle	*where
Mar 27 12:17:53 Mr_Molez	hehe
Mar 27 12:18:02 CBG	well, physics coursework, Molez, just give QD time, if you really have changed, he will soon see it...
Mar 27 12:18:07 randomparticle	what happened to the baron's server, do you know?
Mar 27 12:18:44 randomparticle	not so sure cbg. qd is rather slow to evolve
Mar 27 12:19:26 Mr_Molez	I never see qd. Except for the very odd occasions he comes on irc
Mar 27 12:20:59 randomparticle	qd was saying something about not playing non-trusted players
Mar 27 12:21:48 Mr_Molez	He is showing a bad example then :P
Mar 27 12:21:48 randomparticle	i think he had in mind something more restrictive than not playing know cheats, but it's hard to say, as noone appeared to be listening to him and the conversation didn't really develop
Mar 27 12:22:28 CBG	qd is fairly often on IRC (on #kierra at least)
Mar 27 12:22:31 randomparticle	i think they all thought he was talking about cheats, but he was suggesting some sort of karma system. hard to be sure though
Mar 27 12:22:54 randomparticle	sounds like a recipe for chaos
Mar 27 12:23:10 Mr_Molez	ah well
Mar 27 12:23:29 randomparticle	non-trusted = anyone slightly better than qd :)
Mar 27 12:23:35 Mr_Molez	hehe
Mar 27 12:24:07 randomparticle	hope you're enjoying reading this, qd :)
Mar 27 12:24:29 Birdie	it makes you feel good?
Mar 27 12:24:47 randomparticle	yes, actually
Mar 27 12:25:52 CBG	snick, there seems to be a lot of lag, you said quite a while ago about turning over a new leaf...
Mar 27 12:25:52 Mr_Molez	What if a player gets good karma then decides to make a cheat and use it :-S
Mar 27 12:25:59 CBG	seems to be a few weeks of lag o.O
Mar 27 12:26:42 Mr_Molez	CBG:  ?
Mar 27 12:27:04 randomparticle	yes, the new leaf is fully turned over
Mar 27 12:27:14 CBG	what, 360º like sox did?
Mar 27 12:28:05 *	Birdie has quit ("Goodnight")
Mar 27 12:28:18 randomparticle	but... the fact is, qd is a sulking presence on gu that does little to add to the enjoyment there. and he has a habit of bzmailing me complaints and attacks
Mar 27 12:28:50 CBG	that are undeserved?
Mar 27 12:29:07 randomparticle	yes
Mar 27 12:29:22 *	brad2901 (n=brad@unaffiliated/brad2901) has joined #bzflag
Mar 27 12:29:38 CBG	You realise that *someone* has to be the bad guy, right?
Mar 27 12:30:05 CBG	Can't have everyone saying 'sure, do whatever' and turning the other way...
Mar 27 12:30:39 JeffM2501	I thought I was the bad guy
Mar 27 12:31:07 Mr_Molez	pfft
Mar 27 12:31:25 CBG	JeffM2501: nah, you're to cute to be bad ;)
Mar 27 12:31:29 Mr_Molez	everyone knows im the baddest here :P
Mar 27 12:31:50 JeffM2501	is this now a pissing contest?
Mar 27 12:31:53 CBG	right. :|
Mar 27 12:32:25 Mr_Molez	CBG: I see you arguing on forums :P
Mar 27 12:32:37 CBG	bleh, just defending myself
Mar 27 12:32:46 CBG	dunno why people start attacking me NOW of all time
Mar 27 12:32:47 Mr_Molez	:)
Mar 27 12:32:48 JeffM2501	the karma system has many problems Mr_Molez I honestly don't see Tim ever implementing it
Mar 27 12:33:07 CBG	The last week I have been on my best behaviour ever (imho).
Mar 27 12:33:08 Mr_Molez	I don't see why its needed
Mar 27 12:33:13 JeffM2501	it's not
Mar 27 12:33:25 JeffM2501	it just makes people feel better
Mar 27 12:33:37 JeffM2501	since they think it will actualy solve problems
Mar 27 12:33:43 Mr_Molez	heh
Mar 27 12:33:45 JeffM2501	cus it puts "power" in there own hands
Mar 27 12:33:49 randomparticle	the big problem, surely, is that it would divide the world up into little cliques
Mar 27 12:34:06 randomparticle	and it would be very hard to get an active league like that
Mar 27 12:34:10 JeffM2501	no, the big problem is it would be abbused all to hell
Mar 27 12:34:18 *	Mr_Molez concurs
Mar 27 12:34:29 JeffM2501	and make it so that there can be high karma cheaters
Mar 27 12:34:33 JeffM2501	time should be spent on the server
Mar 27 12:34:41 JeffM2501	not in a fake trust in users
Mar 27 12:34:45 JeffM2501	you can never trust a user
Mar 27 12:34:46 JeffM2501	ever
Mar 27 12:34:54 randomparticle	absolutely
Mar 27 12:35:22 JeffM2501	but again, I'd not worry about it, The karma thing's been out there for 5 years, and hasn't been implemented yet
Mar 27 12:35:29 JeffM2501	so I don't see it geting done by him
Mar 27 12:35:41 JeffM2501	in fact I don't see him at all anymore it seems
Mar 27 12:35:44 randomparticle	perhaps he just wants to exclude players he doesn't trust himself
Mar 27 12:35:49 Mr_Molez	why does tim need to do it ?
Mar 27 12:36:06 JeffM2501	cus he's the only one that thinks it's a good idea :)
Mar 27 12:36:12 Mr_Molez	heh
Mar 27 12:36:18 JeffM2501	and it has hooks into the user database and stuff
Mar 27 12:36:38 JeffM2501	a thing the average joe dosn't have access too
Mar 27 12:36:56 trepan	~JeffM2501++
Mar 27 12:38:00 brlcad	heh
Mar 27 12:38:25 randomparticle	do you know, would it be possible to allow a team flag to reappear at a random position on the team base?
Mar 27 12:38:27 brlcad	i don't think it's a "bad" idea per se.. just a complicated one to do it right and for very minimal benefit
Mar 27 12:38:39 Deepa	i made my own distro :D
Mar 27 12:38:58 CBG	randomparticle: .. why?
Mar 27 12:39:15 randomparticle	passing cycles
Mar 27 12:39:16 brlcad	and there are simply considerably more important things to be working on in the meantime
Mar 27 12:39:24 Deepa	when im making my second release ill include bzflag ^^
Mar 27 12:39:43 Mr_Molez	Deepa: a distro for bzflag is already being worked on
Mar 27 12:39:46 randomparticle	it would give the spawners a little extra time without gettting rid of passing on spawn altogether
Mar 27 12:39:49 Mr_Molez	unless that is you who is making it ?
Mar 27 12:40:09 JeffM2501	yeah a player rating system would not be bad, it could help admins with deceisions and stuff, but it's not a cheat preventer
Mar 27 12:40:33 CBG	randomparticle: ahh, I see
Mar 27 12:40:45 JeffM2501	it provides as much "cheat protection" as global reg does
Mar 27 12:40:54 JeffM2501	and we've seen how much that has helped
Mar 27 12:40:56 randomparticle	i think the passers have too much of an advantage as it is
Mar 27 12:41:06 CBG	Another idea could be a server variable to set an amount of time between cap, and flag respawn.
Mar 27 12:41:11 randomparticle	yes
Mar 27 12:41:12 trepan	Deepa: http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=7044
Mar 27 12:41:12 Mr_Molez	JeffM2501: :P
Mar 27 12:41:26 CBG	So I could set it to wait 5 seconds after a cap, before the flag reappears.
Mar 27 12:41:33 CBG	Or 1 second, and 20...
Mar 27 12:41:55 JeffM2501	could hook it up so plugins coudl controll the cap/respawn logic
Mar 27 12:43:33 randomparticle	i think the random position on the base could be effective. it would stop players sitting on the flag position
Mar 27 12:44:13 randomparticle	or, rather, they could sit there, but they'd have to move sharpish when the flag appeared and adjust quickly
Mar 27 12:48:21 trepan	you can spawn team flags where you want now, with protective capture-triggered world weapons, the problem could already be solved
Mar 27 12:48:53 trepan	sasme goes for flag passing, properly placed zones can minimize the effect
Mar 27 12:49:09 randomparticle	yes, i guess so. but that might tip things slightly too far
Mar 27 12:49:20 bryjen	any idea how many servers require global registration?
Mar 27 12:49:34 randomparticle	the idea is to make the passing cycles just slightly more difficult
Mar 27 12:49:37 JeffM2501	I'm thinking less then 4
Mar 27 12:50:37 JeffM2501	more do reg to talk
Mar 27 12:50:43 bryjen	i'm not saying its a silver bullet, but that's not giving it much of a chance
Mar 27 12:51:00 JeffM2501	yeah, not enough people do it
Mar 27 12:51:02 Deepa	trepan: well i just wanted to point out im gonna include it :)
Mar 27 12:51:04 trepan	silvercat and Thumper's (including louman) servers use a partial requirement (required if player count > X)
Mar 27 12:51:06 JeffM2501	karma will have the same problem
Mar 27 12:51:14 Deepa	if i were lucky a op could have shouted YAY and given me voice :>
Mar 27 12:51:31 JeffM2501	why do you need voice?
Mar 27 12:51:43 Deepa	idk
Mar 27 12:51:45 Deepa	for fun i guess
Mar 27 12:51:47 Deepa	why does one need voice?
Mar 27 12:51:53 JeffM2501	they don't
Mar 27 12:52:00 randomparticle	what is voice, please?
Mar 27 12:52:01 Deepa	my main reason would be since it looks neat with a + infront of your name :)
Mar 27 12:52:02 JeffM2501	well they did when molez
Mar 27 12:52:07 JeffM2501	was doing his thing
Mar 27 12:52:10 Deepa	voice is only used when the channel is moderated!
Mar 27 12:52:13 bryjen	for when the munchkins attack, and the channel goes voiced only
Mar 27 12:52:24 randomparticle	ic
Mar 27 12:52:26 Deepa	bryjen: moderated* :)
Mar 27 12:52:32 Deepa	then only opers+voiced people can talk :O
Mar 27 12:52:37 JeffM2501	I'll do +R before I do +M
Mar 27 12:52:48 Deepa	:)
Mar 27 12:52:51 Deepa	+m is awful
Mar 27 12:53:00 JeffM2501	maybe
Mar 27 12:53:05 Deepa	and you are sure +M is moderated too :>?
Mar 27 12:53:09 JeffM2501	but it's very efective at shuting up asshats
Mar 27 12:53:17 *	bryjen has neither, but knows where he might get them
Mar 27 12:53:34 *	JeffM2501 gives voice to bryjen
Mar 27 12:53:37 JeffM2501	;)
Mar 27 12:53:43 Deepa	:O
Mar 27 12:53:50 Deepa	dang, everyone betas me :P
Mar 27 12:53:55 *	JeffM2501 removes voice from Deepa
Mar 27 12:54:23 JeffM2501	if we were in a voice situation we'd give out voice to people we know would not cause a problem
Mar 27 12:54:25 Deepa	:P
Mar 27 12:54:32 randomparticle	hmm... i wonder... would it be possible to have a favourites list for servers?
Mar 27 12:54:34 JeffM2501	but I hope we never have to back to that
Mar 27 12:54:40 Deepa	revoking voice is far easier then granting it :)
Mar 27 12:54:51 JeffM2501	randomparticle, anything is possible, it's been talked about. in my tabed list idea
Mar 27 12:54:59 Deepa	just for 5 secs then :>?
Mar 27 12:55:01 JeffM2501	no it's the same number of clicks
Mar 27 12:55:49 randomparticle	and also.. this might be a step too far, in a similar vein to emacs, make bzflag the operating system and run everything else on top of that?
Mar 27 12:56:05 JeffM2501	umm.... why?
Mar 27 12:56:19 randomparticle	it's such a pain to have to leave my fave game to  read email etc :)
Mar 27 12:56:22 CIA-3	opencombat: jeffm2501 * GPx01/net/ (inc/netMessages.h src/netMessages.cpp): we need the time of each update message.
Mar 27 12:56:27 *	JeffM2501 gives voice to CIA-3
Mar 27 12:56:38 JeffM2501	I belive the responce is "get a life" :)
Mar 27 12:56:57 randomparticle	have tried, jeff. couldn't find it on the map
Mar 27 12:57:02 JeffM2501	umm yeah
Mar 27 12:57:52 CBG	Ebay don't sell "lifes", JeffM2501...
Mar 27 12:57:54 *	jbauman (i=Johnq@JBAUMAN.WV.CC.cmu.edu) has joined #bzflag
Mar 27 12:58:06 JeffM2501	you don't have to buy them, you make them
Mar 27 12:58:23 CBG	From everyday, household items? :P
Mar 27 12:58:30 JeffM2501	yes
Mar 27 12:58:43 Deepa	*sigh*
Mar 27 12:58:46 CBG	Well, I bet I can find an old TV and some toilet paper tubes...
Mar 27 12:58:47 Deepa	CIA-3: gets voice :P
Mar 27 12:58:47 randomparticle	just double-checking cgb. you'd be surprised what they do sell
Mar 27 12:58:57 CBG	randomparticle: Oh, believe me...
Mar 27 12:59:02 JeffM2501	I like CIA at the top of the list
Mar 27 12:59:24 CBG	Well, it's not really at the top...
Mar 27 12:59:29 JeffM2501	near
Mar 27 12:59:53 CBG	In the top fifth...
Mar 27 13:00:05 JeffM2501	close enough where I don't have to scroll
Mar 27 13:00:07 JeffM2501	how's that
Mar 27 13:00:18 *	jbauman has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Mar 27 13:00:20 CBG	Why would you want to 'see' it anyway?
Mar 27 13:00:28 JeffM2501	to make sure it's not offline
Mar 27 13:00:39 JeffM2501	status kinda thing
Mar 27 13:00:44 JeffM2501	same with ibot
Mar 27 13:00:48 CBG	Heh, I would type CIA and try to tab complete...
Mar 27 13:01:03 JeffM2501	that involves giving IRC focus
Mar 27 13:01:13 JeffM2501	unlike you I do other things during the day ;)
Mar 27 13:01:44 CBG	You keep the (member) list open permenantly?
Mar 27 13:01:49 randomparticle	not much success on the lives thing. you can buy "half a life". unfortunately, it's only a book
Mar 27 13:02:03 CBG	randomparticle: I told ya...
Mar 27 13:02:11 JeffM2501	get 2
Mar 27 13:02:17 JeffM2501	then you'll have a full one
Mar 27 13:02:21 CBG	Then you have 2 books. :/
Mar 27 13:02:39 CBG	I have many books already, I don't want half a life, let alone 2 copies of it...
Mar 27 13:02:50 CBG	Maybe if I ever had time to read...
Mar 27 13:03:14 *	Gnurdux (n=gnurdux@c-69-251-241-119.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #bzflag
Mar 27 13:03:22 Gnurdux	make[2]: *** No rule to make target `TextChunkManager.cxx', needed by `TextChunkManager.o'.  Stop
Mar 27 13:04:03 JeffM2501	and hello to you too
Mar 27 13:04:25 Gnurdux	sry JeffM2501 but has anyone else seen that?
Mar 27 13:04:44 JeffM2501	when you updated did you get new files?
Mar 27 13:04:59 Gnurdux	a couple
Mar 27 13:05:09 JeffM2501	new or just changed?
Mar 27 13:05:23 Gnurdux	just changed i think
Mar 27 13:05:26 randomparticle	hmm.. rerun configure?
Mar 27 13:05:31 JeffM2501	make sure you get new too
Mar 27 13:05:35 JeffM2501	-d IIRC
Mar 27 13:05:46 Gnurdux	but in the dir right now, there is TextChunkManager.o but not TextchunkManager.cxx
Mar 27 13:05:50 Gnurdux	JeffM2501, how do i do that?
Mar 27 13:05:52 JeffM2501	and yes rerun the autogen
Mar 27 13:06:11 JeffM2501	it's ether -u or -d when you run cvs
Mar 27 13:06:19 JeffM2501	check your help on it
Mar 27 13:06:36 Gnurdux	cvs seems to have deleted TextChunkManager
Mar 27 13:06:44 JeffM2501	then it was probably removed
Mar 27 13:06:50 Gnurdux	cause it used to exist
Mar 27 13:06:51 JeffM2501	we do change code
Mar 27 13:06:57 Gnurdux	but they didnt update the Makefile
Mar 27 13:07:07 brlcad	it was moved
Mar 27 13:07:07 JeffM2501	because the makefile is made by YOUR system
Mar 27 13:07:14 JeffM2501	you have to rerun the autogen and configure
Mar 27 13:07:46 Gnurdux	ah it got moved to libCommon
Mar 27 13:07:50 Gnurdux	ahh
Mar 27 13:07:52 JeffM2501	it's the "auto" part of automake
Mar 27 13:07:53 Gnurdux	ok
Mar 27 13:07:54 brlcad	at least configure, autogen only if you're using older tools
Mar 27 13:08:05 JeffM2501	I allways tell em both, dosn't hurt :)
Mar 27 13:08:08 Gnurdux	can i rerun configure using my old configure options?
Mar 27 13:08:12 brlcad	yep
Mar 27 13:08:14 JeffM2501	and shuts em up longer :)
Mar 27 13:08:16 Gnurdux	how?
Mar 27 13:08:29 JeffM2501	Gnurdux, just rerun both
Mar 27 13:08:38 JeffM2501	it's not rocket science
Mar 27 13:08:41 *	Gnurdux forgot his configure options tho
Mar 27 13:08:48 JeffM2501	then use the defaults
Mar 27 13:08:49 brlcad	less config.log
Mar 27 13:08:53 Gnurdux	ah
Mar 27 13:08:55 brlcad	at the top
Mar 27 13:09:12 Gnurdux	thanks
Mar 27 13:09:49 Gnurdux	ok im doing that niw
Mar 27 13:09:50 Gnurdux	now
Mar 27 13:10:33 Gnurdux	JeffM2501, if you have any simple bugs that i care about but nobody's bothered to fix, they might shut me up a bit
Mar 27 13:11:03 Gnurdux	aw im gonna have to rerun autogen :(
Mar 27 13:11:19 Gnurdux	i might as well not delete autotools this time
Mar 27 13:11:30 JeffM2501	Gnurdux, there is a file called "bugs"
Mar 27 13:11:32 JeffM2501	read it
Mar 27 13:11:37 Gnurdux	ok
Mar 27 13:11:56 Gnurdux	only simple bugs tho
Mar 27 13:12:14 JeffM2501	read them and figure out what you want to do
Mar 27 13:12:21 Gnurdux	- the last shot fired with a shot-limited flag doesn't carry the flag
Mar 27 13:12:21 Gnurdux	  type (or is dropped by the server?)...e.g. if I have G, limited to
Mar 27 13:12:21 Gnurdux	  5 shots, and kill someone with the fifth shot, only that player dies
Mar 27 13:12:21 Gnurdux	  because the flag was dropped by the time the kill was scored...
Mar 27 13:12:22 Gnurdux	  even though the shot was fired while I still had the flag.
Mar 27 13:12:27 Gnurdux	ooh that bug pisses me off
Mar 27 13:12:35 Gnurdux	though in a different form
Mar 27 13:12:43 JeffM2501	dude, we don't need to know, just figure it out yourself
Mar 27 13:12:44 Gnurdux	when i die before the genocide bullet hits someone
Mar 27 13:12:48 Gnurdux	is it possible to fix it?
Mar 27 13:12:49 JeffM2501	and stop spaming this place
Mar 27 13:12:53 JeffM2501	anything is posible
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Mar 27 13:13:57 *	bz31 has quit (Client Quit)
Mar 27 13:14:16 JeffM2501	I'm not the best judge of your skills, so I can't tell you what you can or can't do. you'll have to use your own brain and see if you can do it or not. it's part of being a programing.. research
Mar 27 13:15:08 Gnurdux	JeffM2501, i mean is it possible without changing the protocol?
Mar 27 13:15:16 JeffM2501	look and see
Mar 27 13:15:23 JeffM2501	I don't know all the code off the top of my head
Mar 27 13:15:37 JeffM2501	look, just like your asking me to
Mar 27 13:15:53 learner	can anyone familiar enough with the spawn code point me to where entry zones are actually created?
Mar 27 13:16:14 trepan	CustomZone.cxx ?
Mar 27 13:16:33 trepan	then they get mangled in EntryZones.cxx
Mar 27 13:17:14 trepan	i changed it so that the full Zone are now entered, but haven't gotten rid of the makeSplitLists() junk that was required for the partials
Mar 27 13:18:07 learner	i'm just looking at this for the first time, so that made no sense
Mar 27 13:18:32 *	randomparticle (n=502ab095@webchat.bzflag.bz) has left #BZFlag
Mar 27 13:18:45 learner	i see a worldinfo that is given a custom zone, that gets added as an entry zone
Mar 27 13:20:19 learner	i don't, however, see where that custom zone comes from
Mar 27 13:21:13 trepan	BZWReader
Mar 27 13:21:36 learner	that's for actual zone objects
Mar 27 13:21:43 trepan	or WorldGenerators.cxx
Mar 27 13:22:27 learner	and those seem to be for the bases themselves
Mar 27 13:22:40 trepan	BZWReader calls CustomZone::writeToWorld() ... that help?
Mar 27 13:24:37 CIA-3	opencombat: jeffm2501 * GPx01/ (5 files in 3 dirs): move player state into base user data, not the game derived one
Mar 27 13:24:54 learner	slightly
Mar 27 13:25:05 learner	okay, how about a better question.. 
Mar 27 13:25:18 trepan	i don't have any
Mar 27 13:26:02 learner	i get shot, bzfs goes to find me a new spawn position, that spawn position is pulled from a list of entry zones.. where do those zones come from on a -cr map?
Mar 27 13:26:51 trepan	WorldGenerators.cxx
Mar 27 13:26:52 learner	for that matter, how many zones will there be? one big one or multiple smaller ones? 
Mar 27 13:27:20 trepan	search for "addFlagSafety"
Mar 27 13:28:47 trepan	there are 2 safety zones (points), near each base, in front of the pyrs
Mar 27 13:29:33 learner	a flag safety zone means what?
Mar 27 13:29:39 learner	i won't spawn there?
Mar 27 13:29:52 learner	flags won't drop there?
Mar 27 13:30:01 trepan	it's where flags go when they get loopy
Mar 27 13:30:30 *	gsnedders|eaten is now known as gsnedders
Mar 27 13:31:13 learner	i don't see how that relates to how an entry zone is created 
Mar 27 13:31:41 trepan	let's try this another way; what are you trying to do?
Mar 27 13:32:14 Gnurdux	does anyone know how genocide is handled?
Mar 27 13:32:29 Gnurdux	somewhere there is a check if the killer had genocide
Mar 27 13:32:34 learner	i'm trying to understand how my position is chosen when I revive from a kill
Mar 27 13:32:46 Gnurdux	learner, i know its related to flags
Mar 27 13:32:51 *	BWD (i=bdotson@pdpc/supporter/student/bdotson) has joined #bzflag
Mar 27 13:32:52 learner	i saw how a random position is chosed from a custom zone
Mar 27 13:32:55 Gnurdux	cause often you spawn right next to the flag you dropped
Mar 27 13:32:59 learner	and that custom zone is loaded from an entry zone
Mar 27 13:33:27 learner	but I don't see how an entry zone gets created in the first place so that I spawn over here, then over there, etc
Mar 27 13:34:25 learner	on a flat-map ctf, the spawning is almost predictable in that players keep spawning in nearly the exact same 5-6 locations
Mar 27 13:34:51 learner	with a little twiddle room around each of those points, but I can map it down pretty closely
Mar 27 13:35:21 learner	it "seems" like there are 4-5 small zones that they keep spawning in
Mar 27 13:35:47 Gnurdux	learner, do you know where the check for genocide is?
Mar 27 13:35:51 learner	so.. again, the purpose is understanding how zones are created and how many there should even be on a ctf map
Mar 27 13:36:04 Gnurdux	ie when someone dies it checks if the shooter had geno
Mar 27 13:36:07 learner	Gnurdux, yes, in the sources --emacs
Mar 27 13:36:07 trepan	there shouldn't be any player spawn zones unless they are specified
Mar 27 13:36:22 Gnurdux	learner, i did a grep genocide in the bzfs dir
Mar 27 13:36:34 learner	grep some more
Mar 27 13:36:49 Gnurdux	oh its in the client
Mar 27 13:36:52 Gnurdux	hmm
Mar 27 13:37:08 Gnurdux	so that means fixing the bug requires change in protocol and client mod :(
Mar 27 13:37:25 learner	hmm. I assumed SpawnPosition was how they'd be entering
Mar 27 13:37:30 learner	so that's only for zones?
Mar 27 13:37:47 Gnurdux	learner, you know how if you have geno, and you shoot a shot and die, and the shot kills someone it doesnt geno?
Mar 27 13:37:50 Gnurdux	no way to fix
Mar 27 13:38:15 Gnurdux	without hcanging the protocol
Mar 27 13:38:17 trepan	SpawnPosition is always used for player spawns
Mar 27 13:38:51 JeffM2501	Gnurdux, don't inturupt them, they arn't talking about your thing
Mar 27 13:38:58 Gnurdux	i know
Mar 27 13:38:59 Gnurdux	ok
Mar 27 13:39:00 trepan	if player entry zones exists, SpawnPosition will use them
Mar 27 13:39:22 JeffM2501	use a debuger and step thru the code and see what happens, you can't fix bugs by just bothering people till they do your work for you.
Mar 27 13:39:27 trepan	via world->getPlayerSpawnPoint()
Mar 27 13:39:40 *	quantumdot (n=Juan@VA1-1G-u-1254.mc.onolab.com) has joined #bzflag
Mar 27 13:39:50 learner	which calls world->getPlayerSpawnPoint, which looks up in a list of entry zones for a random point
Mar 27 13:40:15 learner	we're full circle
Mar 27 13:40:16 trepan	random w.r.t. the selected entry zones dimensions
Mar 27 13:40:29 learner	where does thta entry zone come from for a -cr map?
Mar 27 13:40:37 learner	world generators, yes?
Mar 27 13:40:39 trepan	there are none
Mar 27 13:41:40 learner	how can there be "none"?
Mar 27 13:42:16 learner	getPlayerSpawnPoint() calls entryZones.getRandomPoint()
Mar 27 13:42:17 trepan	no specified player entry zones
Mar 27 13:42:34 trepan	it returns false if there are no zones
Mar 27 13:42:58 trepan	if there are no zones, SpawnPosition picks the random position
Mar 27 13:42:59 *	quantumdot (n=Juan@VA1-1G-u-1254.mc.onolab.com) has left #bzflag
Mar 27 13:43:20 trepan	(SpawnPosition also keeps player spawns away from the map edges in that case)
Mar 27 13:43:31 learner	i think I see now
Mar 27 13:43:52 learner	that explains the 4-5 points
Mar 27 13:44:01 trepan	how so?
Mar 27 13:44:11 learner	it's the 4 corners of the "box" it's using