Untitled

### Log session started at Thu Nov 2 14:34:40 2006 ###
[14:34:41] scratchme [n=kvirc@nc-76-3-205-133.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##windows
[14:34:41] Channel topic is: Topic for ##windows is: RIP lilo (freenode's founder & head of staff, Rob Levin) || http://freenode.net/news.shtml || ##windows channel Guide lines = http://windows.jot.com || During the course of the day, if someone is being helped in the channel, and you wish to have idle conversation, please join ##windows-offtopic
[14:34:41] Topic was set by Arrick!*@* on Wed Nov 1 23:45:37 2006
[14:34:41] niven.freenode.net [*@*] has set mode +tncPf ##overflow
[14:34:41] Channel was created at Fri Oct 7 15:11:46 2005
[14:34:41] Channel synchronized in 0.532 seconds
[14:34:44] <fuzzybunny> can't say I'm good at it though
[14:35:00] <scratchme> Good at what?
[14:35:08] <Cpudan80> VMWare?
[14:35:17] <Cpudan80> Ive touched it once
[14:35:23] webpower_ [n=duruduru@host207-10-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined ##windows
[14:35:23] <scratchme> VMWare is awesome.
[14:35:30] <scratchme> VMWare is the future.
[14:35:36] <scratchme> Or products like VMWare.
[14:35:42] <quux> ppj1010, what's your question?
[14:35:42] webpower_ [n=duruduru@host207-10-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left ##windows
[14:35:46] _normal1 [n=eddie@rooted.urbox.org] has joined ##windows
[14:36:14] <ppj1010> quux; I made a new VMware machine, but when it boots it says it cant find a bootable floppy/cdrom
[14:36:25] <Cpudan80> hmm
[14:36:40] <scratchme> ppj1010: is the iso/CD drive marked as connected?
[14:36:44] <ppj1010> Maybe I need to disable daemon tools
[14:36:46] <quux> ppj1010: use f2 key in the vm during boot
[14:37:09] <scratchme> quux: there's also ESC key for 1 time boot device selection.
[14:37:18] <quux> stupidly, the default bios doesn't have CD #1 in boot order
[14:37:40] <scratchme> IIRC, won't it choose CD if the HD fails?  It has for me everytime I remember on new VMs.
[14:37:55] <ppj1010> quux; ahh
[14:38:03] <quux> and scratchme is right too: your cd/iso should be marked connected, and connect on boot
[14:38:32] <quux> yeah scratchme; normal boot order works
[14:39:14] <ppj1010> hm
[14:39:19] <scratchme> quux, do you think a CD boot is a viable alternative for a diskless boot?
[14:39:20] <ppj1010> i'm in the bios, but im using an ISO
[14:39:23] <ppj1010> mounted with daemon tools
[14:39:31] <scratchme> ppj1010: That's fine.
[14:39:51] <scratchme> In the VM settings (right click it's name in the tab and choose edit settings), just be sure the host drive letter is selected.
[14:40:00] <scratchme> Alternately, directly choose the ISO.
[14:40:07] <scratchme> It'd be in the config for that CD drive.
[14:40:07] korozion [i=korozion@wheeeeeeeeeeeeee.linuxgeneration.org] has joined ##windows
[14:40:20] <korozion> can I limit a remote user to only their home dir?  (windows 2000)
[14:40:22] <quux> there's no reason to mount it with daemon tho; you can just use the iso directly (vmware will act like daemon in this case)
[14:40:28] <korozion> I'm using winsshd and need to keep a user in just their home dir and the dirs below it
[14:40:31] <scratchme> You get a dialog with all the VM hardware, and click the CD, and change as appropriate.
[14:40:50] <scratchme> quux, there are a few rare instances where daemon tools is actually necessary, but usually not.
[14:41:00] <ppj1010> er.. crap, im not using an ISO
[14:41:10] <scratchme> quux, you think they'll ever support VM access to do CD burning?
[14:41:24] <quux> scratchme, I hope so
[14:41:35] <scratchme> That and modem support would be nice.
[14:41:36] <quux> that and better virtual display drivers
[14:41:42] <scratchme> Yes, that too.
[14:41:51] <scratchme> They've been using that tired VGA driver for too long.
[14:42:14] <fuzzybunny> ppj1010 you need to associate the right device
[14:42:24] <fuzzybunny> sry I've been unf'ing my vb app
[14:42:29] <ppj1010> I installed it from a .exe file :|
[14:42:43] <fuzzybunny> is it bootable?
[14:42:52] <scratchme> I'd love to see benchmarks of a TOE NIC against VMWare virtual transfers, to see if it boosts VM transfers for local loopback too.
[14:42:52] <fuzzybunny> its just like a normal machine would act
[14:43:25] <fuzzybunny> ppj1010 you just need to edit the machine's settings to allocate different nic(s) CD drive(s) etc
[14:43:33] <fuzzybunny> or even ISO's
[14:43:38] <ppj1010> yeah
[14:43:42] <ppj1010> i don't have an ISO
[14:43:49] <scratchme> What do you have?
[14:43:53] <scratchme> EXEs aren't bootable ;)
[14:43:58] <ppj1010> I dont get it
[14:44:01] hardwire [n=hardwire@89-208-58-66.gci.net] has quit IRC: "Coyote finally caught me"
[14:44:04] <ppj1010> am I supposed to put a Windows OS disc in
[14:44:07] <ppj1010> or some Vmware disc
[14:44:26] <scratchme> ppj1010: VMWare makes your App think it's a computer.  Now what would that computer need if it were a separate machine?
[14:44:26] <fuzzybunny> ppj1010 you need to treat it like a real computer
[14:44:33] <ppj1010> oh
[14:44:35] <ppj1010> haha
[14:44:35] <ppj1010> okay
[14:44:37] <fuzzybunny> would you stick an exe file in a machine and expect it to boot?
[14:44:45] korozion [i=korozion@wheeeeeeeeeeeeee.linuxgeneration.org] has left ##windows: "Read error: Connection reset by beer"
[14:45:38] <ppj1010> damn. all my iso's are on other servers
[14:45:40] <scratchme> The concept of an emulator hosting guest OS's is kinda trippy at first.
[14:46:03] <ppj1010> I thought it just had the system run another OS.. not a completely sep system
[14:46:04] Stew2 [i=stew2@dslb-088-072-255-124.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[14:46:05] <ppj1010> that's cool
[14:46:09] CcSsNET_ [n=ccssnet@c-24-147-193-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Connection timed out
[14:46:24] <ppj1010> I didnt realize it took so much HDD sapce though, I was looking to make a network
[14:46:28] <scratchme> ppj1010: yeah, if you want it to all run in the host OS, you should look more at something like Virtuozzo.
[14:46:39] <ppj1010> no this is fine
[14:46:42] Lakez [n=bob@S0106000ea64881df.cg.shawcable.net] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[14:46:44] <scratchme> It takes however much HD the files take.
[14:46:53] <scratchme> You can shrink it though, as sometimes there are empty spots.
[14:47:05] <scratchme> If you defrag in the OS, then use a tool like sdelete from SysInternals.com
[14:47:16] <ppj1010> When i shut it down it will keep the files and what not right
[14:47:30] <scratchme> Then use VMWare's defragment disk option when the VM is off, it'll defrag, compact, and shrink the auto-expanding file.
[14:47:33] bronze_|| [n=Lester@c-71-233-244-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[14:47:40] <scratchme> But only if there are no snapshots or dependencies.
[14:47:53] <scratchme> Yes, it has a big file that has every file in the OS in it.
[14:48:13] <scratchme> Well, more accurately, it has a file(s) which represent a single physical disk.
[14:48:25] <ppj1010> got it
[14:48:26] <scratchme> And that file or files contains all the emulated sub-files.
[14:48:36] <scratchme> Depending on whether you said you wanted 2GB chunks.
[14:48:48] <scratchme> Which typically I don't.
[14:49:04] <scratchme> But it's possible to have really small VM sizes.
[14:49:15] <scratchme> I have a Windows XP install that the VM is under 1GB.
[14:49:36] <ppj1010> yeah i dont need many files, just configuring an AD
[14:49:38] <scratchme> But it doesn't have SP2 on it.
[14:49:39] siofwolves [n=siofwolv@62-30-29-230.cable.ubr06.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined ##windows
[14:50:28] <scratchme> If you decide you want to do a lot of testing, you may want to get yourself a copy of VMWare workstation.
[14:50:43] <scratchme> It'll do linked clones which is really awesome.  And the snapshot manager rocks.
[14:50:54] <ppj1010> hm
[14:51:24] siof [n=siofwolv@unaffiliated/siofwolves] has quit IRC: Nick collision from services.
[14:51:27] <scratchme> I don't remember if VMWare server does VM Teaming either.
[14:51:36] <JonathanD> I have a win2k cluster thats 1.5, pretty sweet
[14:51:47] <scratchme> GB?
[14:52:07] WorkRoey [n=katz@h-69-3-4-130.mclnva23.covad.net] is now known as Roey
[14:52:17] rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined ##windows
[14:52:36] fuzzybunny stabs Roey
[14:52:46] <scratchme> ppj1010: Linked clones are really awesome, since you can install say Windows Server 1x, then link clone it, and your link is only the size of all your new files.
[14:53:11] <scratchme> You change the server name, and IP (if statically configured), and you got a virtual server for maybe 10MB more space.
[14:53:20] <Roey> fuzzybunny:   :)
[14:53:23] <ppj1010> really
[14:53:25] <ppj1010> no differences?
[14:53:35] <Roey> anyone else want optical media to die (in favor of flash)?
[14:53:35] <scratchme> It links back to the original file for every other file.
[14:53:37] <ppj1010> cause i made 4 WXp and 2k3 clients
[14:53:37] <fuzzybunny> hey Roey
[14:53:44] <Roey> hey fuzzy
[14:53:47] <ppj1010> can you run them at the same time?
[14:53:55] <ppj1010> im guessing no right
[14:53:56] <scratchme> If it's a linked clone, you just change the machine name.
[14:54:05] <scratchme> And ip if it's static.
[14:54:13] <scratchme> And then yes, you can run them all at once if you have enough RAM.
[14:54:28] <ppj1010> how many clients do you think 2gb can run
[14:54:31] <ppj1010> guest os's
[14:54:43] <scratchme> Dunno, I've run 8-9 with 4Gb, no problems.
[14:55:09] <scratchme> And some of those are Oracle databases.
[14:55:11] <quux> OK, YAY, MS has reconsidered Vista licensing - as I figured they would
[14:55:21] <scratchme> W00t!
[14:55:34] <scratchme> Did they say what they're gonna do, or just "we're thinking about it?"
[14:55:41] <quux> you can reassign the license to other machines
[14:55:44] <quux> http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/default.aspx
[14:56:04] <quux> note, I think this applies to retail copies only; not OEM copies
[14:56:40] MTecknology [n=MTecknol@138.247.245.37] has joined ##windows
[14:56:48] Cpudan80_ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has joined ##windows
[14:57:07] <MTecknology> Do anybody have any idea how to do this?
[14:57:08] <MTecknology> I want to make three tables, table 1 has information about customer number X, then table 2 has information about what to add to values for a certain customer, then table 3 has one record.
[14:57:08] <MTecknology> I want to read the record in table 3, then start at that record number in table 2, and keep adding values for customers in table 1 from table 2 until it reaches the end, then write the last used ID to table 3
[14:57:21] <JonathanD> quux: on an ongoing basis?
[14:57:24] <JonathanD> IE, more than once?
[14:57:39] <Cpudan80_> MTecknology: Sounds like a primary key type thing
[14:57:46] <quux> yes. they removed the 'only one time' language completely
[14:57:50] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has joined ##windows
[14:57:51] <JonathanD> quux: good
[14:57:56] <JonathanD> how bout the VM clause?
[14:58:05] <JonathanD> or is that one still around?
[14:58:28] khanman [n=khanman@unaffiliated/khanman] has joined ##windows
[14:58:42] <Locutus2k> nothing like trying to move 20G at 33Mb/s
[14:58:44] <quux> that one is still, err, fuzzy to me
[14:58:47] <MTecknology> Cpudan80, you think you'd be able to make a short example of how to do this? - what I asked is an example in itself, I have a whole lot of that tye of thing to do
[14:59:20] <scratchme> quux: What's fuzzy about the terminology?
[14:59:41] <quux> it says 'you may not use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system."
[14:59:59] <scratchme> Hrm.
[14:59:59] Alpha_Blue [n=ab@unaffiliated/Alpha-Blue/x-000000001] has joined ##windows
[15:00:01] <quux> And I have seen different people interpret that in different ways
[15:00:01] <scratchme> That's no good.
[15:00:07] <Cpudan80_> MTecknology: What are you doing this in - access?
[15:00:16] <MTecknology> Cpudan80, Access 2003
[15:00:20] <scratchme> Sounds like you can't have 1 license as host and guest.
[15:00:25] <Alpha_Blue> wasupo
[15:00:29] <scratchme> (reuse as guest)
[15:00:30] <Cpudan80_> MTecknology: Ok - here is the general idea
[15:00:30] rob1 [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined ##windows
[15:00:36] <Cpudan80_> You make table A
[15:00:40] <Cpudan80_> With whatever data you want
[15:00:48] <MTecknology> h on
[15:00:48] <quux> What I *think* it means is, if I have a copy of Vista licensed and running on my bare hardware, I may not run another instance as a virtual machine guest
[15:00:52] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[15:00:59] <scratchme> quux, that's how it reads to me.
[15:01:05] DepretioN [n=phukked@29.96.adsl.brightview.com] has quit IRC: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[15:01:07] <scratchme> You can't use it as both guest and host on the same license.
[15:01:07] <Cpudan80_> Then - you make sure there is a field called "Customer #" or Key # or something like that
[15:01:11] <quux> but what if the 'licensed device' *IS* the virtual hardware?
[15:01:13] <MTecknology> Cpudan80, can you send this to me in PM so I can copy it for a reference?
[15:01:23] <Cpudan80_> yeah
[15:01:26] <MTecknology> ty
[15:01:36] <JonathanD> quux: for example, I install red hat + vmware server on my desktop, and run vista in VM?
[15:01:40] <Alpha_Blue> <quux> What I *think* it means is, if I have a copy of Vista licensed and running on my bare hardware, I may not run another instance as a virtual machine guest
[15:01:44] <Alpha_Blue> yeah, its true
[15:01:45] <quux> That's how I will run Vista, btw. As a virtual system
[15:01:56] <Locutus2k> so long as you don't change the VM's specs drasticly, you don't have to reactivate.
[15:01:57] rob1 [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has quit IRC: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[15:02:01] <Alpha_Blue> even if you dont run it as a virtual system , its still a virtual system
[15:02:03] <scratchme> quux, then you can't violate that term unless you virtualize yet again, or re-install, since virtual hardware is considered a device.
[15:02:12] <Locutus2k> I.E. you don't add a second processor, increase ram, and shuffle disks around all at once.
[15:02:22] <scratchme> I'm not sure how they handle instances like linked clones.
[15:02:28] rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has quit IRC: Connection reset by peer
[15:02:29] <Alpha_Blue> its not a virtual virtual system, we're talking about software which is virtual to begin with
[15:02:33] <scratchme> Is it technically 1 install running 2x?
[15:02:40] <quux> the good news is, in 'reactivation on the same system' scenarios, Vista actually *loosens* the criteria that trigger reactivation
[15:02:50] tazz [n=gaurav@dialpool-210-214-68-76.maa.sify.net] has quit IRC: "Leaving"
[15:02:54] <quux> only a new mobo/main hard drive will do it
[15:02:59] <Locutus2k> scratchme: negative
[15:03:00] <scratchme> quux, what do you think?  Is a linked clone 1 install 2 instances?
[15:03:25] <JonathanD> quux: myself as well, if at all. At least at first
[15:03:25] <quux> scratchme, the number of use-cases is mind numbing
[15:03:47] <scratchme> So technically speaking is this a valid scenario:   Can I install, mark as base image, then link clone, and use as my desktop?
[15:03:57] <scratchme> Is that 1 install or 2?
[15:04:09] <JonathanD> it's 2.
[15:04:12] <JonathanD> but
[15:04:20] <JonathanD> well nm, no, it's 2
[15:04:28] <quux> this is really the problem MS has been trying to get a handle on. HArdware morphs over time. Given that hardware is 'fuzzy', how to draw clear bright lines that determine where the license starts and ends?
[15:04:41] <JonathanD> right
[15:04:42] <scratchme> quux, their best bet is to license users.
[15:04:46] l_r [n=l_r@adsl-ull-110-39.46-151.net24.it] has joined ##windows
[15:04:48] <l_r> hello
[15:04:48] <scratchme> Users don't morph over time.
[15:04:53] <scratchme> Just license simultaneous users.
[15:04:55] <Cpudan80_> MTecknology: See PMs
[15:05:02] <l_r> what's the name of the program to move the files at the beginning of the disk?
[15:05:04] <JonathanD> scratchme: speak for yourself. I am twice as many as I will be 2 years ago.
[15:05:05] <l_r> speedsk?
[15:05:09] <l_r> is it that?
[15:05:14] <scratchme> Twice as many?
[15:05:17] <JonathanD> ever seen multiplicity?
[15:05:20] <quux> scratchme: sounds neat. Now, devise a technology that can enforce this
[15:05:28] <Locutus2k> I've been kinda lost to the M$ user licensing.. If I have a user who nolonger exists, must I delete that profile to get that license back?
[15:05:37] <MTecknology> Cpudan80, k, how do I add that information to table A and then not reuse the information in table B the next time I do the add?
[15:05:37] <scratchme> quux, in all honesty, enforcement is a pain in the rear for the average legit user.
[15:05:39] <JonathanD> scratchme: let me get this clear...
[15:05:39] rob [i=RobertSt@freenode/staff/rob] has joined ##windows
[15:05:41] <Locutus2k> for example an employee leaves...
[15:05:51] <Locutus2k> thats why concurrent licensing is sooo much better.
[15:05:54] <Cpudan80_> MTecknology: Not sure I understand that
[15:05:54] <JonathanD> I, as a person, get licensed to use windows?
[15:05:57] <scratchme> And so far the more enforcement hasn't lead to any discounts on their pricing.
[15:06:05] <scratchme> Or stagnating the increase of.
[15:06:07] <JonathanD> if I don't have a license, I can't use a cmputer, say, at the library?
[15:06:18] <MTecknology> Cpudan80, I need to add the information in Table B to Table A once
[15:06:32] <scratchme> Each entity would get licenses to have x simultaneous users.
[15:06:47] <scratchme> So if a library wanted x simultaneous users they would license such.
[15:06:47] <Locutus2k> MTecknology: why can't you just reference table b?
[15:06:53] <Cpudan80_> Hmm
[15:06:55] <Cpudan80_> Dunno
[15:07:00] <MTecknology> Locutus2k, ??
[15:07:08] <Cpudan80_> Yeah
[15:07:15] <Azalyn[work]> going home.
[15:07:15] <quux> scratchme, one word. firewall. think about it.
[15:07:16] <Azalyn[work]> bye
[15:07:18] <Cpudan80_> Ref by a unique key
[15:07:19] Azalyn[work] [n=z@modemcable087.90-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit IRC: "whee."
[15:07:22] <JonathanD> kinda like terminal services.
[15:07:24] <scratchme> Probably a good way to make this work would be to device a great way to make your profile more universal and more portable.
[15:07:30] <Locutus2k> MTecknology: you say you need to add the information from table B to Table A.. why not just reference table B
[15:07:31] <scratchme> device = devise
[15:07:46] Cpudan80 [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has quit IRC: Connection timed out
[15:07:49] <MTecknology> Locutus2k, reference??
[15:07:50] <scratchme> Firewall?
[15:07:52] <Locutus2k> scratchme: in that case each printer needs a license too
[15:07:55] <Cpudan80_> Look I left freenode!
[15:08:00] <Cpudan80_> Now I can get my other nick back
[15:08:06] Cpudan80_ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] is now known as Cpudan80
[15:08:13] <JonathanD> interesting
[15:08:15] <Cpudan80> That's better
[15:08:29] <frb-away> Cpudan80: if you're registered, you can kill the other one
[15:08:30] <MTecknology> Cpudan80, why didn't you just ghost it?
[15:08:36] frb-away [n=frb@unaffiliated/frb] is now known as frb
[15:08:45] <Cpudan80> MTecknology: Didn't think about that
[15:09:03] <Cpudan80> I closed my laptop lid for a sec
[15:09:10] <Cpudan80> Got a new IP from the WAP
[15:09:12] <Locutus2k> MTecknology: relational databases are your firend....
[15:09:36] <Locutus2k> MTecknology: they're muuuuch more useful than flat ones... many small tables scale better that one giant one.
[15:09:52] <MTecknology> Locutus2k, I'm new to access... could you make a small exampe for me?
[15:09:55] webpower_ [n=duruduru@host207-10-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined ##windows
[15:09:57] <webpower_> hi all
[15:10:01] <quux> oh. Well, lookie here. the virtualization terms are different, based on Vista version
[15:10:14] <webpower_> in windows there is something like chroot?
[15:10:18] <scratchme> quux did you read the home basic?
[15:10:23] <Locutus2k> MTecknology: sorry. I'm not touching access with a 10,000 meter poll, but I'm sure there are examples in the great and powerful google
[15:10:23] <quux> yep
[15:10:24] <scratchme> It says you can't use it on a virtual system at all.
[15:10:36] <scratchme> That's pretty bogus.
[15:10:40] <frb> meh
[15:10:43] <quux> no, it says what I wrote, and that seems different
[15:10:45] <scratchme> Makes life tough for QA testors.
[15:10:46] <scratchme> testers.
[15:10:47] <Locutus2k> scratchme: let em catch you...
[15:11:03] <quux> it says 'you may not use the software installed on the licensed device within a virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system."
[15:11:16] <Alpha_Blue> dumb.
[15:11:17] <scratchme> Oh yeah.
[15:11:18] <scratchme> Okay.
[15:11:20] <Alpha_Blue> imo
[15:11:20] <Alpha_Blue> sry
[15:11:22] <scratchme> Misread it when I read it again.
[15:11:25] <quux> that's the eaxct set of terms for Home Basic
[15:11:27] <Locutus2k> quux: IIRC that is for the home versions.. the business one reads different.
[15:11:32] <Locutus2k> there was something on the register about that
[15:11:33] <MTecknology> Locutus2k, I don't even know what to google for because i essentially don't know what i'm doing
[15:11:34] <quux> yup.
[15:11:35] <frb> that just means you can't install copy A on machine A and in a VM on machine A
[15:11:37] <scratchme> Anyway, business seems to allow it explicitly though.
[15:11:40] <webpower_> in windows there is something like chroot?
[15:12:14] <Locutus2k> MTecknology: '"Access $version" relational database' might be a good start
[15:12:21] <MTecknology> aight
[15:12:22] <quux> webpower_: not really, but can you go into a little more detail about what you want to accomplish?
[15:12:22] <Locutus2k> the key word here is relational
[15:12:26] <scratchme> Although their terms about the apparent DRM related stuff is kind of confusing.
[15:12:29] <frb> I'm really tempted to purchase a copy of XP Pro with the free upgrade to Vista Business coupon
[15:12:29] <MTecknology> ty
[15:12:35] <MTecknology> time for a new hd
[15:12:38] <MTecknology> ttyl
[15:12:46] <scratchme> frb, How much are they?
[15:12:51] <Locutus2k> frb: that'll be what I do to get legal on my laptop again.
[15:12:53] <frb> $149
[15:12:57] <quux> frb: don't you only get that if you are buying a machine with XP pro installed?
[15:12:58] <webpower_> quux I must run a program that should be in a root
[15:13:05] <frb> quux: not that I could find
[15:13:12] MTecknology [n=MTecknol@138.247.245.37] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[15:13:19] <scratchme> frb, what version will they give you?
[15:13:21] <scratchme> Ultimate?
[15:13:22] <frb> some uk site had it, and tigerdirect has it too
[15:13:23] <Locutus2k> M$ has decided that my laptop's license that came from HP is stolen... and their support says 'tough $hit'.. HP points to M$ for a solution.
[15:13:27] <frb> scratchme: Business
[15:13:29] <quux> webpower_: should be in a root ... what? account, or filesystem path?
[15:13:37] <scratchme> Still not bad.
[15:13:37] DepretioN [n=phukked@29.96.adsl.brightview.com] has joined ##windows
[15:13:41] <webpower_> filesystem path
[15:13:48] <frb> Business has everything I need
[15:14:13] <Locutus2k> frb: I'll get Ultimate.. just so I can say 'I'm stupid and paid waaaaay too much'
[15:14:17] <frb> but, I'm also considering saving that $149, and just using it for a new computer
[15:14:19] <quux> webpower_, what is that program?
[15:14:21] <scratchme> Interesting.
[15:14:26] <webpower_> if the program is in /Documents and settings/user/documents ... I wont that it should run as it should be in /
[15:14:44] <scratchme> Business has the most beneficial sounding VM terms.
[15:14:47] <frb> if I buy a new system in say, 12 months, $600 should get me a pretty sweet computer with Vista
[15:14:48] <webpower_> quux is a program compiled by me
[15:14:58] <quux> the idea of a program explicitly checking what path it is on ... seems silly to me
[15:15:14] <quux> why should it care?
[15:16:17] SaLoMoN [n=SaLo@xglusers.de] has left ##windows: "Verlassend"
[15:16:29] <scratchme> quux, am I understanding that Business can be used any number of times on the licensed device virtually?
[15:16:52] <webpower_> i wont a program that does exactly what chroot does in linux
[15:16:53] <punkcut> Locutus2k: call MS anti piracy and report the vendor as selling pirated copies of windows. MS sometimes will replace your license in exchange for reporting a bad vendor.
[15:17:47] <punkcut> Locutus2k: otherwise if MS wont help you I advise you to circumvent them. this is the internet. google.
[15:17:49] <Locutus2k> it was legal until about 4 months ago... after some update it wasn't anymore...
[15:18:01] <scratchme> hahaha.
[15:18:14] vipersniper [n=viper@vipersniper.org] has joined ##windows
[15:18:18] <scratchme> use components of the software to run applications not running on the software;  <=== illegal to use Vista subcomponents without running vista.
[15:18:27] <scratchme> I wonder if that clause makes BartPE illegal to use on Vista.
[15:18:30] <punkcut> sorry. i dont condone piracy. but if a company wont help someone whose in the green. i think every person has a right to simply steal what they need.
[15:18:44] <Locutus2k> punkcut: I don't plan on paying for the license again. I'll put vista on it.. along with 1.5G or 2G of ram... (I actually wanna run programs on the system... the first G is going just to run the OS)
[15:19:02] <punkcut> dont say it like that.
[15:19:10] <punkcut> my OS X laptop ran like crap until it got 1.5GB of memory
[15:19:12] <scratchme> Hrm.
[15:19:12] <punkcut> and its 3 years old.
[15:19:19] <scratchme> They also have this:
[15:19:20] <frb> every time I open a pdf in Foxit, I'm impressed
[15:19:22] <punkcut> a GB of memory is trivial. its 2006 almost 2007.
[15:19:30] <Locutus2k> punkcut: not on a laptop.
[15:19:38] <punkcut> yes on a laptop. its trivial.
[15:19:40] <scratchme> 10. BACKUP COPY.  You may make one backup copy of the media.  You may use it only to 
[15:19:40] <scratchme> reinstall the software
[15:19:54] <punkcut> if you can get a gigstick for under 100 bucks. its trivial.
[15:19:56] <Locutus2k> punkcut: $400 for the license.. $300-400 for the ram
[15:20:07] <scratchme> I wonder if that means you can't use BartPE's clause to create live CDs.
[15:20:11] <punkcut> if you want high quality memory. thats your perogative.
[15:20:27] <scratchme> I think BartPE uses the backup clause to make the Live CDs.
[15:20:34] <ppj1010> can you not boot vmware with a .bin file?
[15:20:34] <punkcut> i got 1GB of 2-3-2-5 DDR 400 laptop memory for 80 bucks.
[15:20:44] <punkcut> and it works just fine.
[15:20:54] <punkcut> and its for a mac. which means its overpriced to begin with.
[15:21:11] <Locutus2k> http://shop.kingston.com/partsinfo.asp?ktcpartno=KTH-ZD7000/1G
[15:21:15] <Locutus2k> and thats for one of them
[15:21:22] <scratchme> Don't buy from the maker =P
[15:21:26] <scratchme> They're always overpriced.
[15:21:35] <Locutus2k> they're often cheaper... but still... its expensive ram
[15:21:41] <punkcut> yah thats ridiculous
[15:21:59] <scratchme> Try newegg.com
[15:22:01] <punkcut> whats special about that memory?
[15:22:15] <punkcut> o... thats "special" HP/compaq memory
[15:22:28] <scratchme> You could also try Crucial.
[15:22:33] <scratchme> They guarantee compatibility.
[15:22:39] <Locutus2k> punkcut: nope, but I won't buy comodity grade ram.
[15:22:39] <punkcut> thats what you get for buying from greedy useless companies who sell you garbage hardware at price gouging rates.
[15:22:45] <scratchme> They have an ActiveX which autoselects your memory.
[15:23:00] <Locutus2k> changing ram in this thing is a total PITA...
[15:23:08] <scratchme> Crucial memory is top notch.
[15:23:08] <punkcut> the memory i talked about for 80 bucks for my mac was kingston
[15:23:15] <Locutus2k> scratchme: some of it is.
[15:23:20] <punkcut> kingston is crap in general. Crucial/Corsair/Mushkin ftw
[15:23:32] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has joined ##windows
[15:23:42] <scratchme> Generally speaking Crucial memory "just works".
[15:23:46] <Locutus2k> I've always used kingston ram and if I get the high grade stuff, I've never had a filure.
[15:24:03] Cpudan80 [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has quit IRC: "Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]"
[15:24:10] <scratchme> I'm sure it was great for back when it was easy to buy high density memory accidentally.
[15:24:16] <User98283> see if i want two pcs to have access to the internet is it a wireless router i'll need?
[15:24:19] <Locutus2k> even if I get crucial.. $400 for the vista license... $225 for the ram
[15:24:20] <scratchme> I did that a few times.
[15:24:42] <Locutus2k> heh...
[15:25:05] <Locutus2k> scratchme: I'm still thr proud owner of two sticks of 512MB PC100... 8 chips per DIMM...
[15:25:27] <User98283> see if i want two pcs to have access to the internet is it a wireless router i'll need?
[15:25:33] <User98283> i only have one cable  modem
[15:25:39] <scratchme> Anyone happen to know what mainboards still accept registered memory?
[15:25:41] <Locutus2k> won't work in anything but a small handful of systems.. bought it for a client, who paid for it up front (special ram.. damn right it was going to be paid for up front) and then never returned my calls when it came time to install it
[15:25:52] <Locutus2k> scratchme: most server class boards.
[15:25:54] <punkcut> User98283: youll need a router and a switch correct. I recommend the linksys WRT54G series
[15:26:03] <User98283> how much?
[15:26:06] <User98283> you got a link?
[15:26:07] <Locutus2k> scratchme: Asus SK8N/V
[15:26:09] <punkcut> User98283: 50-100 bucks
[15:26:09] <scratchme> Locutus2k: A lot of server boards need ECC too don't they?
[15:26:25] <punkcut> User98283: www.linksys.com / www.google.com
[15:26:27] <User98283> so i will need a wireless router?
[15:26:34] <Locutus2k> scratchme: need no, will use yes... the registered bit is if the board calls for it.. it won't run w/o
[15:26:38] <punkcut> User98283: depends on your setup
[15:26:41] <User98283> ugh
[15:26:41] <Locutus2k> registered ram is insane.
[15:26:45] <User98283> what do you mean?
[15:26:52] <User98283> do i need one or not :P
[15:27:03] <scratchme> I have 1GB registered PC3500 2:3:3:5 muskin on my desk.
[15:27:07] <Locutus2k> I think I still have a gig of registered PC2700
[15:27:16] <scratchme> 2x 512MB modules.
[15:27:18] <punkcut> User98283: im not psychic. your not telling me what your NICs are and what you want to do.
[15:27:24] <Locutus2k> scratchme: yup
[15:27:24] fuzzybunny stabs punkcut for recommending her favorite router
[15:27:32] <scratchme> I'm just thinking whether it's better to sell or try to reuse them.
[15:27:36] fuzzybunny recommends the RV082
[15:27:40] <scratchme> They were $180/each when I bought them.
[15:27:44] ace_me [i=Petronel@86.104.141.48] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[15:27:51] <User98283> what do you mean my set up
[15:27:56] <Locutus2k> fuzzybunny: WRT54GL is better.
[15:28:00] <User98283> i'm using USB
[15:28:07] quipster [n=quipster@gateway.wiquest.com] has joined ##windows
[15:28:09] <User98283> to connect
[15:28:10] <Locutus2k> you can flash it and have fun with the transmitter... better range :)
[15:28:41] fuzzybunny isn't up to snuff on uber-soho stuff
[15:29:12] <frb> I don't even know what a SOHO is
[15:29:25] <scratchme> Smal Office Home Office
[15:29:32] <punkcut> User98283: to be blunt. you need to do some googling. But in general a wired setup goes | Cable modem -ethernet cord --> Router uplink port - ethernet cords --> other computers
[15:29:44] <frb> ah, when I see SOHO, I think of san francisco
[15:29:55] <fiz> i think of london
[15:30:02] <User98283> i told you i'm using USB port..
[15:30:04] <fiz> i got jacked in soho for 400 pounds
[15:30:06] frb is away
[15:30:08] <fuzzybunny> frb fiz I think you're talking about HOMO
[15:30:08] <Locutus2k> heh... $151.99 direct from crucial
[15:30:18] <User98283> now if i'm using a usb port i will need a wireless router still right?
[15:30:18] scifix [n=skiff0r@bb-87-81-200-187.ukonline.co.uk] has joined ##windows
[15:30:26] <fiz> that oo
[15:30:27] <fiz> too
[15:30:34] <fuzzybunny> lol
[15:30:52] <scifix> can anyone recommend a free/cheap app for recovering images from reformatted secure digital memory cards?
[15:31:00] <punkcut> User98283: i know your using a USB port. im telling you what a typical setup is. now i highly advise you either call your local ISP to have them set it up or to read the manual they gave you with the self setup kit
[15:31:25] <User98283> look i don't have a wiresless router yet..
[15:31:33] <User98283> why do you think i asked for one
[15:31:33] <punkcut> User98283: basically you have no comprehension of why you need a wireless router. and no you wont.
[15:31:46] <User98283> i wont what?
[15:31:51] <punkcut> need a wireless router.
[15:32:00] <User98283> i wont
[15:32:01] <punkcut> wireless or wired has to do with a completely other set of circumstances.
[15:32:03] <User98283> so what will i need?
[15:32:14] <punkcut> scroll up. read typical situation. find manual. read it.
[15:32:42] <Locutus2k> User98283: http://www.linksys.com/servlet/Satellite?c=L_Product_C2&childpagename=US%2FLayout&cid=1122062340941&pagename=Linksys%2FCommon%2FVisitorWrapper
[15:32:59] bronze_|| [n=Lester@c-71-233-244-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit IRC: "Hey honey, look at that squirrel chewing on th"
[15:33:04] ace_me [i=Petronel@86.104.141.48] has joined ##windows
[15:33:29] <punkcut> see now that just sucks all the fun out of trying to convince someone to learn something new.
[15:33:49] <User98283> u suck
[15:33:53] <Locutus2k> punkcut: you can't use a trash 80 for a database server.
[15:34:04] vipersniper [n=viper@vipersniper.org] has quit IRC: "Leaving"
[15:34:07] <User98283> punkcut doesn't know much as he thinks does he
[15:34:13] <User98283> Locutus2k do they take paypal?
[15:34:24] <ppj1010> On Win2k.. What does it mean to have pipe\browser listed a bunch of times as open shared file
[15:34:25] <Locutus2k> User98283: buy one at your local office supply store/wal mart.
[15:34:34] <User98283> k
[15:34:42] <Locutus2k> they're like $50 or less sometimes
[15:34:54] <cc77> personally, I think that usb modems suck.
[15:35:15] <Locutus2k> cc77: most of the modems have a USB or RJ45 on them.
[15:35:24] <punkcut> USB connections do suck for internet.
[15:35:25] <Locutus2k> the setup bloke probably just set up the USB...
[15:35:45] <punkcut> and no most routers dont have USB ports on them. at least most low end consumer grade routers/switches
[15:35:48] <cc77> I have a modem with usb and ethernet, and tried using usb and its crashy.
[15:36:15] <punkcut> at least not for uplinking. ive seen a bunch of them with USB ports for printer sharing.
[15:36:22] <punkcut> although dubious how well that works.
[15:36:23] <Locutus2k> cc77: USB eas never designed to be used like that.
[15:36:31] <cc77> I mean, I have to reset it all the them when using usb. But ethernet just works and no drivers needed.
[15:37:11] <Locutus2k> the do it for people who don't have ethernet on their box, but if you don't.. then.. get a new damn box.... or the $10 card.
[15:37:48] Locutus2k kicks the stupid D-Link 4 port router seperating his test net from the live one....
[15:38:00] <Locutus2k> 33Mb/s my shiny metal arse!
[15:38:19] Vec [n=Vector@dsl-241-216-55.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit IRC: Success
[15:38:21] <punkcut> yah D-link is garbage
[15:38:30] <ppj1010> Anyone know about pipe\browser open shares? Not googling much
[15:38:45] <Locutus2k> it was free... and temporary... the linksys I was using got crushed.
[15:39:10] <Locutus2k> AC guy stomped it when he was standing on my work bench.
[15:41:30] HentaiXP [n=Justin@217.121.55.238.guam.net] has joined ##windows
[15:41:57] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has quit IRC: "Passed out in the bathtub with a midget."
[15:43:26] <punkcut> why didnt his company pay for it?
[15:43:41] <cc77> question about irc
[15:44:04] <cc77> You see me as cc77 but I see myself as Bla Bla
[15:44:26] <cc77> Its annoying.
[15:44:59] bronze_|| [n=Lester@c-71-233-244-55.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[15:45:08] <cc77> test
[15:45:10] <fuzzybunny> cc77 wtf are you talking about?
[15:45:35] <cc77> aah, fixed it, its was gaim irc thing, local alias thingy
[15:46:53] <quux> scratchme: to answer your earlier q. the license for Vista Business edition isn't yet avbl
[15:48:31] <frb> gaim is a horrible irc client
[15:48:41] <frb> all IM centric programs are horrible IRC clients
[15:49:00] <Alpha_Blue> true
[15:49:25] cc77 fingers are twitching (has bad joke) but takes a valium pill. channel ops would flame me else.
[15:50:22] jKilla [n=jKilla@adsl-69-225-39-184.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined ##windows
[15:50:29] jKilla says hello to all
[15:50:30] <cc77> frb, I know but my english is bad and spell control helps me.
[15:50:32] <frb> wow, digit8 is so new, I can't even buy a CD from amazon
[15:50:42] <jKilla> is there a "like" or "contains" in excel
[15:50:48] siof [n=siofwolv@unaffiliated/siofwolves] has joined ##windows
[15:51:06] alien [n=alien@dlx43.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined ##windows
[15:51:13] <jKilla> like, if I want so do a sumif and the condition is that a certain column contains a word
[15:51:26] <frb> msdn is your friend
[15:51:39] siofwolves [n=siofwolv@unaffiliated/siofwolves] has quit IRC: Nick collision from services.
[15:51:52] <fuzzybunny> hmm frb do you think this fish looks weird? http://www.jonkleinhans.com/Handler.ashx?PhotoID=56&Size=L
[15:51:59] <frb> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/excel/CH062528191033.aspx
[15:52:22] <alien> anyone could help me ? winxp -> after i reboot after SP2 install my system doesnt want to boot i mean it stays at the "windows logo" screen forever
[15:52:33] <frb> jKilla: clicking through from there, I found FIND and FINDB - Finds one text value within another (case-sensitive)
[15:52:38] <fuzzybunny> frb how about this one http://www.jonkleinhans.com/Handler.ashx?PhotoID=57&Size=L ?
[15:52:53] <frb> jKilla: also SEARCH and SEARCHB which are not case-sensitive
[15:52:56] <cc77> alien, try booting in safe mode
[15:53:09] <alien> and what then ?
[15:53:15] <alien> normal boot after save ?
[15:53:17] <cc77> see what happens
[15:53:21] <frb> jKilla: they look like fish
[15:53:37] <frb> bleh
[15:53:41] <frb> fuzzybunny: they look like fish
[15:53:43] <fuzzybunny> frb you don't think anything of the 1st one?
[15:53:49] <alien> ill brb then ...
[15:53:49] <fuzzybunny> does he look like a badass
[15:53:50] <jKilla> frb: thanks
[15:53:56] <cc77> press F8 when booting, one a second and halve while booting, alien.
[15:53:58] <frb> interesting, but not weird
[15:54:13] <alien> halve ?
[15:54:15] <fuzzybunny> ahh Roey said he was weird looking
[15:54:33] <fuzzybunny> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionfish
[15:54:36] <frb> but I'm not a good person to ask
[15:54:38] <fuzzybunny> I love that 1st one
[15:54:54] <fuzzybunny> as mean as he could be, he is quite friendly
[15:55:00] <fuzzybunny> energetic and affectionate
[15:55:10] chafe [n=chafe@yoda.tcc.fl.edu] has quit IRC: "Granos is fat <------------"
[15:55:20] ace_me [i=Petronel@86.104.141.48] has quit IRC: "got to sleep a bit"
[15:55:30] alien [n=alien@dlx43.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[15:55:31] <cc77> ok, I mean like 21, press F8, 23 press f8. alien count from 21 to 30 and press on each count the F8 button.
[15:55:37] <fuzzybunny> I'm going to have Arrick over and have him grab my fishie
[15:55:59] Digamma [i=Doug@bas2-kingston08-1167934866.dsl.bell.ca] has joined ##windows
[15:56:07] Digamma [i=Doug@bas2-kingston08-1167934866.dsl.bell.ca] has left ##windows: "Au revoir mon amis."
[15:57:04] CcSsNET [n=ccssnet@c-24-147-193-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[15:59:09] Roey [n=katz@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/Roey] is now known as WorkRoey
[15:59:41] Kronoz [n=Kronoz@ACCB8197.ipt.aol.com] has joined ##windows
[16:02:43] <Locutus2k> punkcut: just cause...
[16:02:50] Jonbob [n=Jonbob@hrbg-216-222-231-104-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net] has joined ##windows
[16:02:59] <Locutus2k> I didn't push because it was a cheap router from the parts bin at my house anyway
[16:03:21] <punkcut> Locutus2k: they wouldkve refunded you current retail price of the router. you couldve gotten a brand new one
[16:03:34] <punkcut> brand new shit is not to be passed up
[16:03:37] <Locutus2k> meh... I have 2-3 more in the bin.
[16:03:46] <Locutus2k> it is when you have several more not doing anything
[16:03:55] <Locutus2k> it then becomes more hardware just laying around
[16:04:46] jKilla [n=jKilla@adsl-69-225-39-184.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)
[16:04:48] punkcut [n=punkcut@209.237.251.116] has quit IRC: 
[16:09:40] skyyyy [n=pwnij@adsl-154-164-183.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined ##windows
[16:10:28] ThomasO [i=icechat5@towens.rh.rit.edu] has joined ##windows
[16:10:30] scifix [n=skiff0r@bb-87-81-200-187.ukonline.co.uk] has left ##windows
[16:10:46] <ThomasO> Exactly why should someone upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista?
[16:11:43] <quux> because they ... want to?
[16:12:13] <quux> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windows_Vista
[16:12:23] <John_Wayne> im back
[16:12:37] John_Wayne [n=Arrick@unaffiliated/arrick] is now known as Arrick_School
[16:13:49] punkcut [n=punkcut@209.237.251.116] has joined ##windows
[16:14:41] ftp3 [n=mree3@71.237.201.104] has joined ##windows
[16:14:43] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has joined ##windows
[16:15:25] aTypical [n=aTypical@12.41.72.35] has joined ##windows
[16:16:19] <aTypical> hello, all.  i'm working on a pc that doesn't finish the boot process.  it appears that explorer.exe runs, but instantly dies.  i try running it from the taskmgr window and it dies there too.  has anyone seen this?  any suggestions for how to correct it?
[16:17:00] <ftp3> i have a type of security question.  My job keeps pretty strict admin control on our desktops.  I can use vnc to goto my home machine to use im's and irc ;-) but i was wondering, if I get an encrypted vnc client, will the sysadmin still be able to see what I am doing?
[16:17:28] mizerydearia [i=mizery@CPE-70-92-88-48.new.res.rr.com] has quit IRC: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[16:17:34] <ftp3> am doing as in each line i type, i dont care if he sees i am running vnc
[16:18:02] teddy233 [i=xtreme@206.162.190.245] has joined ##windows
[16:18:16] Azalyn [n=junon@modemcable113.99-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined ##windows
[16:18:56] <fiz> you could just tunnel everything you do over ssh to your machine at home
[16:19:57] <ftp3> yes, but couldnt the admin see everything before it gets "ssh'ed"?
[16:20:06] <fiz> ummm
[16:20:16] <fiz> it gets encrypted before it leaves your machine
[16:20:34] <ftp3> fiz, right.. so, unless he is running snooping software, he wont see?
[16:20:49] <fiz> no
[16:21:14] <quux> if the sysadmin wants to see what you are doing, he will see it. it's that simple
[16:21:21] <ftp3> fiz, to be honest, there is nothing great i am doing, but sometimes I say some things to my gf via IM that I dont really want the office sysadmin sharing with everyone
[16:21:32] Cpudan80 [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has joined ##windows
[16:21:50] <fiz> then tunnel is over ssh to a computer at your house
[16:22:05] <ThomasO> Will Windows Vista be able to finally burn DVDs without a third-party program?
[16:22:07] <ftp3> fiz, ok, so if I ssh tunnel to my house, thats secure?
[16:22:08] <fiz> but like quux said, if he wants to see what you're doing, it doesn't matter
[16:22:19] <Cpudan80> ftp3: Yes
[16:22:30] <quux> now, most sysadmins actually do not want to be the policy enforcers for 'you should be working dammit!', but sometimes they are forced to by management
[16:22:41] <fiz> yeah
[16:22:46] <JonathanD> quux: shouldn't you be working?
[16:22:48] <fiz> i leave that up to their supervisors/managers
[16:22:50] <Cpudan80> ThomasO: I think so yeah
[16:23:02] <quux> bottom line, if you're doing something you know the boss wouldn't like, don't count on technology to hide that
[16:23:05] <ThomasO> Vista Business, I mean. It says it comes without the Media Center stuff from the Home editions (which do have DVD burning).
[16:23:14] <ftp3> well, the company I work at needs tight security.. (insurance industry), but I just want to IM my gf and friends.. you know
[16:23:18] <Cpudan80> hmm
[16:23:18] <quux> JonathanD, I am (my big long script is processing)
[16:23:21] <Cpudan80> Don't know
[16:23:24] <fiz> omg
[16:23:26] <JonathanD> quux :P
[16:23:30] <Cpudan80> I don't think they would take it out though
[16:23:34] <fiz> are you having cybersekz?
[16:23:43] <Cpudan80> Might be a downloadable package or something
[16:24:05] ThomasO [i=icechat5@towens.rh.rit.edu] has quit IRC: "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
[16:24:13] skyyy [n=pwnij@adsl-152-238-115.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[16:24:14] Kronoz [n=Kronoz@ACCB8197.ipt.aol.com] has quit IRC: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)
[16:24:15] <quux> ftp3, get a cellphone that does im
[16:24:27] <quux> or better yet, get to ... work
[16:24:28] <JonathanD> yeah, thats probably safe.
[16:24:29] <JonathanD> :P
[16:24:30] <Cpudan80> ftp3: Most employers prohibit IM at work
[16:24:31] <ftp3> quux, i do have a treo..
[16:24:42] <Cpudan80> I would not go skating on that ice
[16:24:46] <JonathanD> ftp3: why don't you like, do your job at work, instead of IMing your GF and cybering :P
[16:24:55] <fiz> cuz working sucks
[16:25:05] <JonathanD> more to the point...
[16:25:05] <ftp3> yep, thats why i am not using messenger on the desktop.. they removed it from everyone.. they said that virsues get spread that way :-)
[16:25:05] <Cpudan80> fiz: Get a new job then
[16:25:05] <fiz> i'm ready to retire
[16:25:16] <JonathanD> if I saw an ssh session for the majority of the day.
[16:25:17] <quux> If GF can't handle the fact that you have a job where you do {work}, then perhaps she can handle dates where she always {pays}
[16:25:21] <fiz> ftp3: then use the web based client
[16:25:38] <JonathanD> I'd check it out and shut it down.
[16:25:41] <fiz> only way they can block that is by disabling activex or java or whatever the hell it uses
[16:25:42] <ftp3> :-)
[16:25:43] fuzzybunny [n=fuzzybun@host-64-179-8-41.buf.choiceone.net] has left ##windows
[16:25:49] <JonathanD> cause surely it's against policy :P
[16:25:54] <fiz> quux: heh
[16:25:56] <Cpudan80> Probably
[16:26:01] <Cpudan80> Just to give you a fair warning
[16:26:09] <JonathanD> they're a financial, Cpudan80
[16:26:12] <Cpudan80> I worked for an Insurance Company (Medical)
[16:26:14] <JonathanD> and he has a probable ssh tunnel
[16:26:33] <quux> I love how computer tech is supposed to make it possible for everyone to cheat on their agreements more effectively!
[16:26:34] <JonathanD> thats a potential liability, he could be exposing internal servers to the outside world.
[16:26:36] <Cpudan80> JonathanD: I was talking to fiz
[16:27:07] <Cpudan80> Fiz: I worked for a medical insurance company -- I had to pull HDD access logs and firewall access logs because of people using IM
[16:27:13] <JonathanD> fiz: get a laptop with a wide area wireless adapter.
[16:27:19] <Cpudan80> They were promptly disciplined
[16:27:24] <fiz> why the hell are you guys telling me this
[16:27:29] <fiz> i didn't ask any questions
[16:27:30] Locutus2k hands Cpudan80 his BOFH hat.
[16:27:36] <Cpudan80> BOFH?
[16:27:37] <quux> let's steal our music/movies, chat when we should be working, screw over the customer whenever possible! Technology makes it possible, yeah! Raise your FIST, man!
[16:27:40] <JonathanD> lol.
[16:27:48] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: why are you allowing IM in the first place
[16:27:48] <Cpudan80> Bring on the Flames?
[16:27:54] <fiz> technology is good for one thing.... stealing porn
[16:27:59] <JonathanD> Cpudan80: ftp3 asked the q?s
[16:28:01] <frb> we use IM to speak to coworkers
[16:28:04] <fiz> other than that i could do without it
[16:28:04] <Cpudan80> Locutus2k: THey found some way around it -- BOFH?
[16:28:04] <ftp3> maybe I should just watch xtube
[16:28:06] <ftp3> ;-)
[16:28:16] <frb> I use IRC to get help on work related issues (and help others in exchange)
[16:28:18] <Cpudan80> xtube --- lol
[16:28:19] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: http://www.theregister.co.uk/odds/bofh/
[16:28:27] <frb> P2P is banned from my corporate network
[16:28:45] <ftp3> frb, they allow irc but not p2p?
[16:28:46] <frb> I banned it, I'm the network admin :P
[16:28:50] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: unless it runs over port 80 and you allow people out without going through your proxy... there is no way around it
[16:29:08] <frb> ftp3: irc doesn't drain the entire bandwidth and make it so the other 30 employees can't get their work done
[16:29:15] <Locutus2k> of you could be a truely evil wanker like me.. set their port to 10Mb/s half duplex...
[16:29:17] <Cpudan80> Locutus2k: We didnt have a proxy
[16:29:21] <frb> irc actually has some value
[16:29:22] <Locutus2k> or 2 if your switch allows it
[16:29:35] <Cpudan80> 2 MB lol
[16:29:54] <Locutus2k> or again.. something I've done.. bandwidth limit theirport at the switch to 5KB/s (56k modem speed)
[16:29:56] <quux> Blah. I don't think technology should change the ethics of our personal and contractual agreements at all. If I agreed to work for boss for 8 hours a day, I should ... y'know ... do what I agreed to
[16:30:17] <frb> some of us actually do help, and get help for things related to work here
[16:30:20] <Cpudan80> Locutus2k: omg
[16:30:29] <Cpudan80> What about when they need to download something from the server?
[16:30:34] <frb> that's why I'm on ##javascript, ##csharp, and sometimes efnet #asp.net
[16:30:37] <Locutus2k> life is a bitch isn't it.
[16:30:46] <Cpudan80> hahahhahahahahaha
[16:30:51] <Cpudan80> how evil is that
[16:30:54] <Locutus2k> they should have thought about that before they violated company policy
[16:31:04] aTypical [n=aTypical@12.41.72.35] has quit IRC: "Leaving"
[16:31:10] <Cpudan80> Oh - well - if they had serious violations
[16:31:15] <Cpudan80> I would disable their AD account
[16:31:19] <frb> I have shut down people's network access before for doing p2p after being warned
[16:31:25] <Cpudan80> and then send a nice E-mail to their boss
[16:31:30] <Locutus2k> make them explain to the bosses why were using IM instead of working.. then when you get directive from said boss... turn their port back up.
[16:31:44] frb goes back to the DSL proposal
[16:31:53] <Cpudan80> Locutus2k: Or - you can do it my way - and disable the AD account
[16:31:57] <Cpudan80> Less leg work
[16:31:58] <Locutus2k> I don't disable accounts.. they can't work at all and thus play solitare all day.. just slow it down to where it is agony to do anything.
[16:32:01] <Cpudan80> Right click - disable
[16:32:23] <fiz> man
[16:32:25] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: but not nearly as much fun.
[16:32:29] <Cpudan80> Locutus2k: They can't login without an AD account at my place
[16:32:44] <Cpudan80> So - they would just wander
[16:32:49] <fiz> man... i was bored one day so i made a gpo disabling sol.exe
[16:32:54] <fiz> holy shit i thought i was gonna get lynched
[16:33:09] <Locutus2k> ya.. but if you let them in very slowly, they can log in, and do their normal work... but they have to move very very slowly.
[16:33:13] <punkcut> hey at least you dont work in OSS. people are too busy taking camping trips and ranting on /. and digg and flickr to do any work.
[16:33:19] <ftp3> locutus2k: they removed solitare from everyones machines here
[16:33:21] <fiz> Cpudan80: sure they can... just unplug the network cable
[16:33:33] Arrick [n=Arrick@unaffiliated/arrick] is now known as Arrick_Idle
[16:33:35] <frb> punkcut: that's why they are in the office for 20 hours a day to do 6 hours of work
[16:33:39] <Locutus2k> cached logons :)
[16:33:41] <Cpudan80> fiz: umm that might work
[16:33:48] <fiz> might... it does
[16:33:50] <Cpudan80> They were all too dumb to try that
[16:33:54] <punkcut> frb: i wish.
[16:33:56] <Cpudan80> fiz: Yeah - it would work
[16:33:58] <Locutus2k> I just make their life hell.
[16:34:05] <frb> punkcut: we were when I was in FOSS
[16:34:07] <Cpudan80> I tried to be nice to my users
[16:34:10] <Cpudan80> Then again
[16:34:12] <fiz> i let my users do whatever they want... so i dont' have to worry about any of this
[16:34:13] <quux> Bleh again. Trying to be the netadmin who ensures everyone is doing their jobs and not just wasting time ... is itself counterproductive. let the bosses worry about that
[16:34:15] <Cpudan80> I was the lowly PC tech
[16:34:16] <Locutus2k> the sick thing is it is written in the policy manual such that I can get away with it.
[16:34:22] <punkcut> frb: that doesnt bother me. the office for IT people should be comfortable. If they wanna live there for half the day to get work done. Fine with me as long as they get what I need
[16:34:25] <Cpudan80> I could always pass the buck
[16:34:40] <Locutus2k> I can't stop people from working, but it doesn't say I can't make their life hell.
[16:35:24] CppIsWeird [i=Need2Ble@pool-71-241-3-25.norf.east.verizon.net] has joined ##windows
[16:35:30] <Cpudan80> True
[16:35:50] <Cpudan80> I tried to go easy on them most of the time
[16:35:55] <Cpudan80> Not all the time - just most of the time
[16:36:02] <CppIsWeird> i downloaded the flash install exe, and when i execute it, it pops up and looks like its loading, but then as soon as it gets to 100%, it dissappears.
[16:36:19] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: my response is dictated by my mood at the time of the offence.
[16:36:20] <frb> CppIsWeird: that means it's done
[16:36:23] <Cpudan80> CppIsWeird: Redownload it
[16:36:33] <Locutus2k> although our policy on using IE is very clear... no room for movement there.
[16:36:39] <Cpudan80> Actually - frb is right - it might just be done
[16:36:57] <frb> Locutus2k: everyone must use IE?
[16:37:05] <quux> As a sysadmin, my answer to those bosses who want me to ensure worker productivity is always: yes, I can do that. no, I won't be 100% effective. Now, how many hours a week, and how much capital investment do you want me to put into this project?
[16:37:07] <Locutus2k> thou shalt not use IE
[16:37:18] <frb> that is a silly policy
[16:37:21] <Cpudan80> One lady asked me if I could fix her computer so she could go visit an inappropriate site one time
[16:37:29] <Locutus2k> there are few exceptions, and those are listed in the manual.
[16:37:32] <CppIsWeird> oh, lol, it did install... i was expecting clicking next a million times
[16:37:42] <Locutus2k> frb: not really.. we've never had a case of spyware...
[16:38:14] <Cpudan80> Never?
[16:38:17] <Cpudan80> You know what I hate
[16:38:18] frb won't get into this now, maybe in 4 hours
[16:38:19] <punkcut> your users shouldnt be running as admin to begin with. unless of course some piece of crap third party software requires it.
[16:38:19] <Locutus2k> machines don't get loaded with crap... ever.
[16:38:29] <Cpudan80> When the crazy workers download those IE toolbars
[16:38:36] <Cpudan80> and the little emoticon things
[16:38:37] <quux> Locutus2k: you will. Nothing about FF stops a user from clicking the 'yes, download spyware and install it' button
[16:38:41] <Cpudan80> drives me bonkers
[16:38:57] <punkcut> Cpudan80: why arent you using websense or something?
[16:39:06] <Locutus2k> quux: fear of me chopping their hands off... heh :)
[16:39:08] <Cpudan80> That would be a good idea!
[16:39:08] <punkcut> Cpudan80: websense and deep freeze. good match.
[16:39:18] <Cpudan80> punkcut: Deep Freeze - oh man
[16:39:25] <Cpudan80> You really want that to stay the same
[16:39:38] <Cpudan80> They might have added websense since I left
[16:39:41] skyyyy [n=pwnij@adsl-154-164-183.mco.bellsouth.net] has quit IRC: Connection timed out
[16:39:44] <Locutus2k> we have config files for FF that make the users not click that stuff.
[16:39:47] <Cpudan80> When I was working there --- there was no filter
[16:39:47] <quux> Locutus2k: but fear of hands-chopping applies to any browser - even IE
[16:40:01] <Locutus2k> until that policy becomes ineffective it'll stay the same.
[16:40:20] <quux> HAhahaha! You have filters? And how much time is spent maintaining the exclusion filters?
[16:40:21] <Locutus2k> besides, until IE7, there was no tabbed browsing.
[16:41:42] <Locutus2k> quux: you must admit... since IE is the most used browser, it is the biggest target for security holes (and ms has many of them)
[16:41:54] <frb> I run IE7, no antivirus, and my machine is fine
[16:41:59] <Locutus2k> so far the policy has worked for our company... so I'll stick with it.
[16:42:11] <quux> Locutus2k, no, I must not
[16:42:50] <Locutus2k> you don't think IE is the biggest target for hackers?
[16:43:00] <Cpudan80> Telling / forcing everyone to use Firefox doesn't really solve anything
[16:43:11] <Locutus2k> it has worked for years...
[16:43:12] <Cpudan80> A user can be dumb - no matter what browser they are at
[16:43:12] <quux> I've done a fair bit of research into this, and the overwhelming majority of ACTUAL spyware cases via IE required the user to be a part of the installation process
[16:43:39] <frb> I got vcodec from opera
[16:43:54] <Locutus2k> the policy is what it is, there has never been a problem... another company that we manage IT for uses IE and I'm always cleaning up junk...
[16:43:55] <Cpudan80> So - if a user goes to some spyware web-page --- they can still download whatever stuff they want via Firefox
[16:43:59] <quux> the fact of the matter is, IE"s security model works. Like Cpudan80 says, there's no getting around dumb users (but I add: dumb users *with admin privs*)
[16:44:13] <Locutus2k> same level of stupid users.
[16:44:29] <Cpudan80> quux: That "give every admin access" thing was not my idea :)
[16:44:30] <quux> IE is quite simple to secure. Simply disable activeX
[16:44:39] <Cpudan80> That's what I did
[16:44:43] <Cpudan80> Made it prompt
[16:44:51] <quux> I've got more thoughts about this in our FAQ
[16:44:51] Quixotic|Pixie [i=Mols@71.14.17.148] has quit IRC: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
[16:44:59] <Cpudan80> we actually had pages with AX so - I couldn't just kill it altogether
[16:45:01] <Locutus2k> I just don't use it... same result.
[16:45:03] <quux> http://windows.jot.com/FAQ
[16:45:15] <Cpudan80> lol
[16:45:20] <quux> Locutus2k: what you're doing is kidding yourself, honestly
[16:45:24] <frb> you can disable activex in the itnernet zone
[16:45:30] <frb> and enable it in the intranet zone
[16:45:43] <frb> problem solved
[16:45:47] <Cpudan80> frb: At one time - a major app was in the internet zone
[16:45:56] <Cpudan80> They moved it in house
[16:45:59] <Locutus2k> quux: I respect the opinions of people who aren't mushrooms (you appear to be in the non-mushroom crowd) but its hard to argue with the result.
[16:46:03] <Cpudan80> then I flipped the settings
[16:46:07] <frb> Cpudan80: so you add that site to intranet
[16:46:23] <Cpudan80> frb: hmmm
[16:46:47] <Cpudan80> I think my real problem was that the people were researching legit info on pages using AX
[16:46:49] Quixotic|Pixie [i=Mols@71.14.17.148] has joined ##windows
[16:46:52] <frb> the zone is merely a group of sites that you trust, it doesn't _have_ to be phsyically on the internet
[16:46:57] <quux> Most of the 'IE insecure' stuff is, in fact, FUD. Mostly designed to cover up for the fact that people are not using the security features it offers, or educating their users. FF will be subject to the same wave of problems; it'll just take longer for FF users to get their heads out of the sand they have willingly buried themselves in
[16:47:13] <Cpudan80> So I could not completely add a domain to a zone - because it was too many sites
[16:47:19] <Cpudan80> I think that was the real reason
[16:47:24] <quux> Locutus2k: here's a magic rock. It keeps tigers away
[16:47:34] <Cpudan80> hgahahahahah
[16:47:39] <quux> look, see? No tigers!
[16:47:45] Cpudan80 wants a magic rock
[16:47:51] Cpudan80 that keeps bad users away
[16:48:06] <frb> I have a tiger-repellant amulet, and a elephant resistent butter dish
[16:48:20] <Cpudan80> lol
[16:48:27] l33t1 [n=l33t1@c-67-191-115-45.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[16:49:20] <frb> Works like a CHARM!
[16:49:24] <frb> ar ar ar ar
[16:49:34] <quux> arrr arr arr
[16:49:44] <Cpudan80> lol
[16:49:47] <frb> a seal, not a pirate
[16:50:05] <Locutus2k> sorry.. had to pause chat to do real work for a sec :)
[16:50:13] Cpudan80 believes we have gone way off topic
[16:50:13] <quux> If your security stance depends on 'always use the less popular app because hardly anyone is attacking it' ... well. Do the math.
[16:50:31] <Cpudan80> It's just like Mac OS X
[16:50:32] <quux> NAhh, I think this is smack dab on target
[16:50:34] <frb> since when did this channel have a topic
[16:50:37] <Cpudan80> or Macs period
[16:50:57] <Cpudan80> Now that dummy users are finally using them -- the reports of viruses, spyware have gone up
[16:51:10] <Cpudan80> That - and the fact that they are becoming more popular
[16:51:23] <Cpudan80> The two cases are not mutually exclusive
[16:51:23] <Locutus2k> quux: its safer based upon our experience in our environment, the users like it. pop up blockers build in are nice, tabbed browsing is a great thing...
[16:51:46] <Cpudan80> I'm sure some of your users hate it
[16:51:50] <quux> Locutus2k: Hey, I won't argue with 'we like it'. I think preferences should be respected.
[16:51:55] <Locutus2k> I've yet to get one who does.
[16:52:09] <quux> But I *will* eviscerate the "it makes us more secure" arguments
[16:52:25] <Cpudan80> eviscerate?
[16:52:27] <frb> both FF and IE had 0day security holes in their latest releases
[16:52:31] <Cpudan80> ooh a big word... :)
[16:52:35] teddy2323 [i=xtreme@206.162.190.245] has joined ##windows
[16:52:58] <Locutus2k> quux: I'm not saying that at least not on purpose... jus that in our experience.. we've have no problems with spyware in this office, and another company we mange has constant problems... there could be many causes....
[16:53:05] <quux> BAsically you are taking the security by obscurity approach ... and we all know where that leads. Either the obscurity fails, or you spend more and more time contorting into obscure positions
[16:53:14] <Locutus2k> I can't see a reason to change policy just cause... if I had a real reason, i might think about it.
[16:53:28] <quux> I'm not telling you to change policy
[16:53:34] <Locutus2k> I know
[16:53:39] <quux> I'm just saying, be realistic about the one you have
[16:54:01] <Locutus2k> I thought the policy was a bit odd when I started, but i found it hard to argue with the track record.
[16:54:09] <Locutus2k> I've only been here about 2.5 years.
[16:54:45] <quux> Right. And FF *has* been a smallish target in that time. Which does not mean it will always be.
[16:54:46] <Locutus2k> now that IE is catching up with the pop up blockers, and tabbed browsing, it'll be interesting to see what happens
[16:55:05] <Locutus2k> I kinda like FF2, but who knows what the security holes are yet.
[16:55:17] <Locutus2k> IE7 won't go out to my users for many months.. nor will FF2
[16:55:21] <quux> But keep your arguments properly classified. There are feature args, and there are security args. Mixing them leads to muddy thinking.
[16:55:36] User98283 [i=Guest982@80-195-218-31.cable.ubr01.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit IRC: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)
[16:55:38] amee2k [n=thomas@p5497F290.dip.t-dialin.net] is now known as amee2k|zZzZ
[16:55:42] Cpudan80 agrees with quux
[16:56:24] <quux> There's a large part of the FF crowd who *really* just want to stick it to the MS-man, and rationalize this with pseudo-arguments
[16:56:38] Zero_Ice [n=Zero_Ice@HighChapperrell.sfbmb.psu.edu] has quit IRC: "Ex-Chat"
[16:56:46] <Cpudan80> This is true
[16:56:57] <quux> And hey, if they wannas stick it to MS - let them go ahead, I have no probs with that. But be honest about it.
[16:57:24] <Cpudan80> If you really thiink about how much code is in Windows / IE / FFox
[16:57:39] jKilla [n=jKilla@adsl-69-225-39-184.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined ##windows
[16:57:42] <Cpudan80> We will realize that the number of security holes is - very - very - small
[16:57:54] <Cpudan80> oops - should say you will
[16:58:13] <Cpudan80> Windows CE had like 3 Billion lines of code or something
[16:58:17] <Cpudan80> And that's for CE
[16:58:27] <Locutus2k> quux: I used to be that way, and in some cases I still enjoy sticking to MS, but for the most part, whatever gets work done safely...
[16:58:50] <Cpudan80> If you think about it - both browsers are very safe
[16:59:04] <quux> I go on and on about this stuff, not to be an MS apologist or whatever. But just to say, un-muddy your thinking. Get your criteria honestly and forthrightly prioritized.
[16:59:05] <Cpudan80> If you put everything in prespective
[16:59:24] ftp3 [n=mree3@71.237.201.104] has quit IRC: 
[16:59:30] <Locutus2k> hell, I'm seriously thinking about converting to AD... not because I think it is the best thing since sliced bread, but because we're moving heavily to thin clients and citrix.
[16:59:55] <Cpudan80> What were you using?
[17:00:00] <Cpudan80> Novell?
[17:00:01] <Locutus2k> quux: I've been in IT for just over 10 years now...
[17:00:18] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: yup... Novell, and Linux
[17:00:18] <quux> Locutus2k: as have I. Longer, actually
[17:00:28] <frb> hey, me too!
[17:00:36] <Cpudan80> Locutus2k: Then why not switch to a straight linux domain?
[17:00:41] <Locutus2k> I'll never give up my linux systems.
[17:00:47] <Cpudan80> Do you have any windows clients?
[17:00:52] <Cpudan80> Weird office
[17:00:53] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80: because the LDAP management tools suck.
[17:01:06] <Cpudan80> true
[17:01:09] <Cpudan80> Still weird
[17:01:13] <Locutus2k> until that gets sorted it doesn't scale well.
[17:01:15] <Cpudan80> Office running all Linux
[17:01:21] <Cpudan80> Kinda cool
[17:01:23] <quux> Locutus2k: and again let me be clear. I'm not saying you should. I'm just saying, have your priorities (and reasons for them) clearly defined
[17:01:23] <Locutus2k> a friend of mine does.
[17:01:34] <Cpudan80> No wonder why you were using Firefox --- you can't use IE on linux lol
[17:01:38] <Locutus2k> they have linux workstations, and servers.. no windows anywhere, but thats odd
[17:01:48] <HentaiXP> Cpudan80, you can with wine
[17:02:00] <Cpudan80> HentaiXP: True ---- didn't think of that
[17:02:13] quiet [n=quiet@unixcorps/staff/quiet] has joined ##windows
[17:02:16] <quux> I use and advocate linux
[17:02:34] <quux> But I also use and advocate MS technology - where it makes sense
[17:02:37] <quiet> is it possible to use the 'shutdown' command with an IP address rather than \\computername  format?
[17:02:53] <quiet> quux, sounds like you'd be a perfect match for unixcorps :D
[17:02:54] <quux> quiet: sure. shutdown \\ipaddress
[17:02:57] <quiet> that's what we do.
[17:03:05] <Cpudan80> quiet: Yes
[17:03:06] <fiz> there is a builtin shutdown command?
[17:03:08] <quux> quiet, tell me more
[17:03:10] <fiz> i always use ps
[17:03:18] <quiet> #unixcorps or unixcorps.org
[17:03:19] <Locutus2k> quux: I look at all of my options, but based on the people I work for MS has a very hard sell here...
[17:03:20] <Cpudan80> quiet: You can get a GUI client to do it if you want
[17:03:29] <Cpudan80> but the syntax for the shutdown command would be
[17:03:29] jKilla [n=jKilla@adsl-69-225-39-184.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has left ##windows
[17:03:31] <Locutus2k> I thought they were going to burn me at the stake jsut for thinking about AD
[17:03:51] <Cpudan80> exactly what quux said :)
[17:03:54] <Cpudan80> add a -m though
[17:04:04] <quux> quiet: check out my new project, then. http://tools.assembla.com/quuxutils
[17:04:33] <Locutus2k> Cpudan80, quux, this is a fun little discussion :)
[17:04:37] <quiet> it keeps telling me the network path was not found.
[17:04:51] <Cpudan80> quiet - don't use the \\ then
[17:04:54] <quux> quiet: what OS on the target system?
[17:04:59] <quiet> 2000 pro
[17:05:05] <quiet> shit... it doesn't have shutdown
[17:05:07] <quiet> XD
[17:05:09] <quiet> i forgot.
[17:05:10] <quux> could be firewalled
[17:05:13] <quiet> it's not.
[17:05:24] <Cpudan80> quiet: Then port the app over from XP
[17:05:26] <quux> get sysinternals' psshutdown
[17:05:27] <Cpudan80> not so hard
[17:05:30] <quiet> maybe ARI can do it.
[17:05:37] Ky|ratix [n=igotpak9@wsip-68-224-169-2.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined ##windows
[17:05:50] <scratchme> pstools = I own your system
[17:05:51] <Cpudan80> And - in XP - if you run the command > shutdown -i --- you could do it by IP
[17:05:52] <scratchme> ;)
[17:06:00] <Cpudan80> The -i gives you a gui
[17:06:14] <Cpudan80> and you can type the IPs in that it looks like
[17:06:40] <scratchme> quux, did you read the business Vista license for virtual installs?
[17:06:49] Cpudan80 [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has quit IRC: "Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]"
[17:06:53] Jonbob [n=Jonbob@hrbg-216-222-231-104-pppoe.dsl.hrbg.epix.net] has quit IRC: "Leaving"
[17:07:02] <quux> scratchme: afaict, the business version of the license is not yet published
[17:07:12] <scratchme> It's on MS's site.
[17:07:31] <quux> I looked here: http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
[17:07:36] <scratchme> http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows Vista_Business_English_e59f6893-6b14-4262-964c-993ed16d138a.pdf
[17:07:49] <scratchme> Yeah.
[17:07:51] <scratchme> I did too.
[17:07:52] <scratchme> http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx
[17:07:59] <scratchme> Click "Windows Vista"
[17:08:02] <scratchme> "Business"
[17:08:05] <scratchme> "English"
[17:08:24] <quux> they must have literally put it up within the last hour
[17:08:46] <quux> meh. I'm hapy now, no need to go over each one with a finetoothed comb
[17:08:59] Arrick_Idle [n=Arrick@unaffiliated/arrick] is now known as Arrick
[17:09:08] <scratchme> f.  Use with Virtualization Technologies.  You may use the software installed on the 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> licensed device within a virtual (or otherwise emulated) hardware system.  If you do so, 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> you may not play or access content or use applications protected by any Microsoft digital, 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> information or enterprise rights management technology or other Microsoft rights 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> management services or use BitLocker.  We advise against playing or accessing content 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> or using applications protected by other digital, information or enterprise rights 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> management technology or other rights management services or using full volume disk 
[17:09:08] <scratchme> drive encryption.
[17:09:10] <AntiSpamBot> Please don't flood ##windows, Use pastebin (http://pastebin.ca). A reduce-flooding tip: Don't paste docs, point to them.
[17:09:19] <scratchme> Bah, didn't want multi-line pasting.
[17:09:19] <HentaiXP> pastebin
[17:10:08] <HentaiXP> anyone in here deal with rx7s?
[17:10:20] Cpudan80 [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has joined ##windows
[17:10:23] <Cpudan80> Oops
[17:10:25] <Cpudan80> closed the wrong window
[17:10:28] <quux> the car with the rotary engine?
[17:10:33] teddy233 [i=xtreme@206.162.190.245] has quit IRC: Connection timed out
[17:10:41] <Arrick> quux, yep
[17:11:15] <HentaiXP> yes quux
[17:11:46] <HentaiXP> quux, dealt with them?
[17:11:57] <quux> friend had one in college
[17:12:12] <quux> good car, till there are engine probs. then, $$$
[17:12:42] Quixotic|Pixie [i=Mols@71.14.17.148] has quit IRC: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
[17:12:51] <scratchme> quux, what do you think of that virtual install verbage?
[17:12:57] rizwank [n=rizwank@pool-71-105-100-218.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined ##windows
[17:13:05] <quux> scratchme: I agree with it.
[17:13:14] <scratchme> How many virtuals do you think it permits?
[17:13:18] <HentaiXP> quux, recall the engine problems he had?
[17:13:20] <scratchme> Unlimited on the same licensed device?
[17:13:22] <rizwank> Does anyone have an FTP server that they recommend? I'm not a fan on IIS, but I need a small FTP server for a client's machine...
[17:13:32] Quixotic|Pixie [i=Mols@71.14.17.148] has joined ##windows
[17:13:39] <quux> Basically, the bits about bitlocker and digital content are technical issues that they are codifying in the license
[17:13:46] <quux> HentaiXP, sorry, I do not
[17:13:48] <scratchme> rizwank: WarFTP is pretty good so far.
[17:13:48] <Cpudan80> Apache?
[17:13:54] <Cpudan80> thats kind of big
[17:13:57] <scratchme> rizwank: I'm sure there are smaller ones easier to configure.
[17:13:59] <rizwank> lol, I remember using WarFTP a while ago
[17:14:17] <scratchme> quux, what exactly are they talking about there?
[17:14:19] <Cpudan80> What's so bad about IIS?
[17:14:23] <scratchme> That part of the license seems wierd.
[17:14:34] <quux> Basically the new DRM
[17:14:36] <rizwank> well, atm, its not permitting connections, but the event viewer and logs don't explain why.
[17:14:49] brianw [n=brianw@gentoo/user/brianw] has joined ##windows
[17:14:54] <scratchme> So they're saying it's illegal to block their DRM?  How do you know if you are doing it inadvertantly?
[17:15:02] <Cpudan80> hmm
[17:15:05] <Cpudan80> dont know about that one
[17:15:16] <quux> The issue is, Hollywood wants 'protected video path'. And you cannot accimplish protected video path in a virtualized machine
[17:15:39] Vec [n=Vector@c1-131-4.rrba.isadsl.co.za] has joined ##windows
[17:15:49] <scratchme> So they are saying outright, can't play any DRM in virtual?
[17:15:50] <quux> My feeling is that there will be a spate of movies with PVP enabled, customers will hate it, and it will go away
[17:16:05] <frb> you mean like the original DIVX?
[17:16:10] <quux> No. You can't play DRM'd content that specifies a PVP
[17:16:19] stef [n=stef@vs-lmb-40a74.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit IRC: Connection timed out
[17:16:28] <quux> if the DRM'd content doesn't specify PVP, it will work
[17:16:44] <frb> 7M/896k Business DSL for $64.06 with a 2 year contract
[17:16:53] quipster [n=quipster@gateway.wiquest.com] has quit IRC: 
[17:16:55] <quux> there's also a protected audio path for audio content, iirc
[17:17:19] <frb> I can get DSL cheaper here in the middle of BFE than my father can in a suburb of a major metro area
[17:17:28] <scratchme> frb, haha.
[17:17:49] <scratchme> I'd gladly pay that price to get that DSL.
[17:17:58] Angel-SL [n=angelsl@pdpc/supporter/student/Angel-SL] has quit IRC: Connection timed out
[17:17:59] <Locutus2k> the music and movie industry have to be the best... what other industry can you treak your entire customer base like criminals, and people still buy your crap?
[17:18:02] <scratchme> If they'd let me do it without a phone line.
[17:18:09] Angel_SL [n=angelsl@cm69.sigma13.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##windows
[17:18:10] <frb> this is business DSL
[17:18:16] <scratchme> Or give me the phone line for $15.
[17:18:33] <frb> but since we do have qwest phones, I might be able to get it cheaper
[17:18:38] <quux> Locutus2k: get real. Remember Napster?
[17:18:53] <Locutus2k> napster came and went... IRC still remains.
[17:18:54] <scratchme> I pay $78/mo counting taxes and such for 1 phone line and 3M/512kbps dsl
[17:19:13] <Locutus2k> the only thing P2P did was make it easier for mushrooms to steal music.
[17:19:14] <quux> Fact is, if people can get the content for free without fear, they will.
[17:19:46] <scratchme> Locutus2k: The fact that iTunes does a lot of biz proves people will buy it if it's cheap and easy.
[17:19:53] <Locutus2k> and the VCR has increased sales... (taking a page from the MPAA's argument)
[17:20:01] <Locutus2k> scratchme: exactly
[17:20:14] <quux> I hate to put it so bluntly, but yeah. DRM treats consumers like theives because ... if theivery is easy and without consequence, people ... steal
[17:20:20] <Locutus2k> but the RIAA treats their entire customer base like cirminals.
[17:20:45] <quux> VCR is radically different than P2P
[17:20:52] <scratchme> I don't mind DRM, just don't get in my way, hog my CPU, or keep me from doing stuff I should do.
[17:21:04] <Locutus2k> I haven't bought a CD since all this RIAA DRM crap started.. and I'll continue to not buy CDs.
[17:21:05] Cymage [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] has joined ##windows
[17:21:23] <quux> with VCR you had to a) have two VCRs ($$$) and b) make copies one at a time, taking hours per copy
[17:21:41] <Arrick> anyone here play with perl much
[17:21:42] <Arrick> ?
[17:21:45] <quux> same for audiocassets
[17:21:49] <Arrick> I need help getting a bot going lol
[17:21:53] <Locutus2k> quux: the MPAA is using the VCR argument as part of their case... which is why I tossed it out there.
[17:21:55] <scratchme> quux, but the RADIO.
[17:21:59] davascript [n=danny@208.199.76.228] has joined ##windows
[17:22:03] <Cymage> Arrick, no but i met her cousin mabel
[17:22:06] <scratchme> People could make their copies at home making everyone hush while they record.
[17:22:10] <Arrick> Cymage, you toad
[17:22:15] <quux> So, Hollywood/RIAA cried wolf with tapes. But this time, they are not crying wolf. The potential is huge.
[17:22:16] <davascript> i like windows
[17:22:41] <Locutus2k> quux: make the content accessable, and people will buy it.
[17:22:42] <frb> davascript: that's nice
[17:22:42] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has joined ##windows
[17:22:43] <Arrick> I installed activeperl like i was suggested to in #perl, now they dont seem to want to help out lol
[17:22:47] rizwank [n=rizwank@pool-71-105-100-218.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[17:23:10] <quux> sure, radio. Again, with tape technology, it was a pain to make 2 copies for 2 friends. Online, it is no pain to make 1000 copies for 1000 strangers. That's just reality.
[17:23:26] <Locutus2k> when you tell me I can't move my music around without going theourhg a lot of hassle, I won't buy it... I'll download illegal stuff.
[17:23:37] <quux> Locutus2k: ok, have fun with that
[17:23:42] <davascript> bit torrent forever
[17:23:50] <Locutus2k> quux: to be fair... I don't download illegal stuff either :)
[17:23:53] <quux> But "make the content accessable, and people will buy it." ... hahahahahahah!
[17:23:54] <davascript> anyone use rtorrent
[17:24:14] <Locutus2k> well.. I guess I do... mainly cause much of the music I listen to I have a hard time finding in the states... but if I can buy the CD I will.
[17:24:18] <quux> make content accessible, and people will take it without buying.
[17:24:23] <brianw> it is definetly against fair use act to not allow me to backup my cd's. That is ridiculous
[17:24:39] <scratchme> quux you just have to make buying it easier than stealing it.
[17:24:42] <quux> Backup is a fine use.
[17:24:48] <davascript> if your not sharing and jsut keeping magnetic why not
[17:25:01] <scratchme> quux, what's your thoughts on the backup clause in Vista?
[17:25:10] <frb> even if I don't own it, I should be able to listen to my music on any medium I do own
[17:25:17] <quux> And should be protected. But don't use it as the argument that rationalizes 'make it also easy to give 1000 strangers a copy'
[17:25:21] <Locutus2k> frb: but you don't owrn it.
[17:25:23] <frb> scratchme: same clause on all commercial software afaik
[17:25:29] <frb> Locutus2k: I own the medium
[17:25:38] <quux> scratchme: given the technological state of the art, I agree with it
[17:25:40] <frb> I own my personal mp3 player, I own my cd player, I own my laptop
[17:25:51] <scratchme> quux, do you think this precludes use of BartPE with Vista?
[17:25:56] <Locutus2k> frb: but you don't own the music
[17:26:12] <frb> are you even paying ATTENTION?
[17:26:19] <frb> [15:23:20] <frb> even if I don't own it, I should be able to listen to my music on any medium I do own
[17:26:20] <Locutus2k> frb: you only won the plastic disc it comes on
[17:26:23] Prohibited [n=Prohhhh@74.129.28.170] has joined ##windows
[17:26:29] <quux> I am not a lawyer. I think it's a grey area. I think in some usecases, BArtPE is perfectly within the intent of this. In others, not.
[17:26:35] <frb> what part of that says I own the music?
[17:26:47] <frb> and what part of you saying I do makes me want to have a discussion with you?
[17:26:57] <Locutus2k> frb so you're saying if you buy the disc, you should get the music for free?
[17:27:03] <davascript> bartpe is better than windows  because its windows livecd
[17:27:14] <quux> See, even the 'I have an ipod, a computer, and a boombox' argument gets outside of how music used to be distributed
[17:27:17] <frb> I'm saying if I buy the disc, and pay the fees, I should be able to listen to that music on any personal device
[17:27:18] <quux> think about it
[17:27:27] <scratchme> quux, doesn't it say:  10. BACKUP COPY.  You may make one backup copy of the media.  You may use it only to reinstall the software.
[17:27:33] <Locutus2k> frb: you should, but you can't
[17:27:48] <quux> scratchme: and BartPE can be used in exactly that sense, can it not?
[17:27:55] <Locutus2k> brb... work getting in the way again
[17:27:58] <scratchme> To reinstall?
[17:28:11] <davascript> yep reinstall  hhmmmm whats that like
[17:28:13] <scratchme> The copy you make in BartPE isn't for installing.
[17:28:45] <quux> frb: the issue with 3x player devices is this. Once you have copies on all three devices, it may now be played on all 3 devices by 3 different people. Which was not possible in, say, the age of record albums
[17:29:23] <quux> scratchme: I would argue that 'using BArtPE to fix my licensed copy of windows' falls within the intent of that statement
[17:29:33] <davascript> that should be legal
[17:29:37] <davascript> why not
[17:29:55] <davascript> its just the same software redesigned to work better(or in a differnet way)
[17:29:56] <frb> quux: I'm saying the price/license has to be redefined to say that
[17:30:02] <davascript> modified if you will
[17:30:07] <scratchme> quux, but it also states you must only have 1 copy.
[17:30:16] <frb> otherwise, they need to drop the price to a reasonable level
[17:30:25] <davascript> licenses  smlicenses
[17:30:27] <scratchme> Which means your BartPE version would preclude you from having an exact copy, correct?
[17:30:31] <davascript> use linux win forever
[17:30:32] <frb> I'm sorry, but CD Prices haven't dropped in more than 10 years
[17:30:34] <quux> I will also venture so far as to bet MS will never prosecute Bart, or the users fo his CD, until you see some office full of people running from one copy of the 'BartPE LiveCD'
[17:31:00] davascript [n=danny@208.199.76.228] has quit IRC: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[17:31:36] <frb> now, the price of the CD media has dropped 99%, so I should at least see a drop in price of $5 overall from 1996
[17:31:38] <quux> frb: look, I don't care to get into args of 'but the prices ...' ... I think that's just rationalization. Fix the basic problems, and the pricing will automagically adjust itself.
[17:31:48] <scratchme> Wouldn't that be right?  If BartPE was included, you couldn't make a backup copy of your Vista disc until you destroyed it right?
[17:31:57] <frb> and since the prices are like this, they licensing needs to be fixed
[17:32:36] <frb> it definitely shouldn't cost the same to buy a single-user copy of a song off the net as it does for a CD
[17:32:41] <quux> scratchme, but in a sense, it IS included. You have the original media, which includes a recovery OS and reimage tech and so on.
[17:33:04] <quux> I have not heard much about what if any improvements have been made to the Recovery Console
[17:33:22] <scratchme> You may not ·  use components of the software to run applications not running on the software; 
[17:33:25] <frb> most of the recovery console is graphical now
[17:33:31] <scratchme> Do you think that has any effect on BartPE ?
[17:33:39] <frb> scratchme: that's more of a WINE clause
[17:33:52] <quux> frb: again, price is an argument that I just don't see getting into. If the market is honest (on BOTH sides: this is important), pricing will auto-correct
[17:33:54] <frb> don't be stealin my DLLs to emulate your shizzat
[17:34:25] <scratchme> Does this mean you can't copy files from Vista, and run the files on say XP ?
[17:34:30] <quux> when people say "I don't like the price, therefore I will steal", they are just making the problem worse for everyone else
[17:34:34] <scratchme> Even if you own both?
[17:34:41] <frb> I never said therefor I will steal
[17:34:49] <frb> I said therefor the price/licensing model needs to be rewritten
[17:34:55] <quux> I realize that. I am still bringing it up, though
[17:35:08] <frb> I go buy used cds for $2 from amazon or something
[17:35:22] <quux> Like I say. Fix licensing, and have an honest market, and price resolves itself. It really is that simple.
[17:35:49] <mezoko> Hi
[17:35:56] <scratchme> Oh no.
[17:36:02] <scratchme> It's network card guy.
[17:36:04] <scratchme> ;)
[17:36:10] <mezoko> Are there any free tools like ghost that will make a image of a widnows install?
[17:36:15] <quux> Licensing isn't currently "broken". btw. It's just that new tech makes people *want* new license models
[17:36:17] <mezoko> scratchme, nah I got that fixed and worked out
[17:36:22] <Cpudan80> mezoko: nLite
[17:36:32] <frb> I want to be able to buy a song, and listen to it on both my PC and my portable
[17:36:33] <Cpudan80> NLite allows you to slip in stuff to the install
[17:36:38] <scratchme> Cpudan80: Doesn't it only create an unattended install?
[17:36:42] <Cpudan80> It isn't exactly ghost
[17:36:45] <quux> and that want has translated into a very dishonest market, and now everyone is pissed
[17:36:48] <mezoko> Cpudan80, yeah, but I want to make a image of everything I have installed and setup
[17:36:52] <Cpudan80> scratchme: Yes - maybe that's what he wants
[17:36:58] <scratchme> mezoko: I think you can create an image in Linux.
[17:36:59] <Cpudan80> mezoko: Nope
[17:37:07] <scratchme> Might be possible with a Knoppix disc.
[17:37:07] <Cpudan80> You can?
[17:37:10] <Cpudan80> neato
[17:37:13] <scratchme> I'm not sure what utils are on there.
[17:37:20] <scratchme> Maybe dd + tar or something.
[17:37:37] <Cpudan80> You could use ntbackup
[17:37:46] <Cpudan80> and make an auto-recovery disk
[17:37:48] <mezoko> ntbackup is that a windows util?
[17:37:52] <scratchme> Yes.
[17:37:53] <punkcut> quux:  but wouldnt you agree that the consumer base should lead the market? the industries failing to adapt new license models is their own problem. which by proxy means that piracy is nobodies problem but their own.
[17:37:55] <Cpudan80> yep
[17:37:57] <quux> frb: right. What you *want*, and what your license says (you actually did implicitly agree to it) are two different things.
[17:38:03] <Cpudan80> mezoko: Type ntbackup at the run line
[17:38:15] <frb> the license isn't written on the outside of a cdcase last I looked
[17:38:15] <scratchme> IIRC, ASR disk requires a floppy and you'll need the original install media.
[17:38:18] <mezoko> Cpudan80, does that include all the files and settings, programs, etc...
[17:38:22] <frb> and once I open it and read the license, I can't return it
[17:38:25] <punkcut> like anyone can understand the legal jargon anyway.
[17:38:34] <Cpudan80> mezoko: No - what you really want is ghost
[17:38:44] <Cpudan80> Just go borrow it from a friend to make the image
[17:38:47] <quux> punkcut, I think the consumer has taken a dishonest approach to solving his new wants, and this has led to a dishonest market, and it is screwing everything up.
[17:38:52] <mezoko> Cpudan80, lol
[17:39:00] <scratchme> mezoko: the idea is you have the ASR disk, and your original meda, when you start installing, you choose the ASR option, and it does a restore for you.
[17:39:00] <Cpudan80> and then - dont loose that friend - because you'll need it to recover the image
[17:39:20] <punkcut> my opinion is if they make it too complicated to understand and catch 22 to agree to it. and at the same time ask for unreasonable things without giving an alternative. screw em all and steal it.
[17:39:21] <mezoko> scratchme, hmm, dd and tar might be a better solution
[17:39:25] <scratchme> Or go mow a lawn and buy it.  It's only $27 on amazon.
[17:39:26] k-man [n=jason@ppp244-232.static.internode.on.net] has left ##windows: "Leaving"
[17:39:29] <Cpudan80> mezoko: Ghost is going to make you "back-out" of windows for the image
[17:39:37] <Cpudan80> IE. You will have to reseal windows
[17:39:46] <quiet> \o/  sysprep
[17:39:57] <scratchme> Reseal?  If it's for the same computer you don't have to do anything.
[17:40:00] <Cpudan80> yeah - sysprep - cuoldn't think of the name of the tool
[17:40:03] <quux> Punkcut: nonsense. It is very easy to understand. The license is basically 'you own one copy of the media, playable on any one device at a time'.
[17:40:07] <quiet> that's true ^^
[17:40:08] <frb> afaict, the real issue is that the RIAA/MPAA seem unwilling to cooperation and embrace the new technology
[17:40:13] <quiet> the reseal is only to regen SID
[17:40:15] <Cpudan80> scratchme: Really?
[17:40:23] <quux> That was easy to understand, and logically enforced, by hard-to copy media like records
[17:40:25] <Cpudan80> I always backed up the images on a server
[17:40:27] <frb> s/ration/rate/
[17:40:31] <Cpudan80> so maybe that was why it made me do it
[17:40:42] <punkcut> quux: ive seriosly tried to sit down and read some of these licenses. theyre massive. and full of "well if you look at this in clause 2. it means this. but only if a b and c are met"
[17:40:43] chafe [n=chafe@fl-69-68-16-12.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##windows
[17:40:44] <quiet> Cpudan80, you don't have to regardless of where you store the image.
[17:40:48] <Cpudan80> The reseal really isn't that big of a deal
[17:40:50] <scratchme> No idea, if you backup Ghost 200 to DVD, you don't have to do anything special.
[17:40:55] <quiet> as long as it goes onto EXACTLY the same machine..
[17:40:56] <scratchme> It just makes a copy.
[17:40:56] <mezoko> Well what do you guys think of this logic, do you think it'll work? I'll make a tar copy of all the file on the widnows partition (tar is kinda like a zip file) and then I'll make a backup of the mbr, and then when I restore the mbr it and the tar it should work like a image file, right?
[17:40:58] <punkcut> quux: i mean im sure if i sat down with a notebook i could map out my rights. but thats just silly.
[17:41:01] <Cpudan80> quiet: Hmmm -- maybe my ghost was old
[17:41:05] <quiet> i use symantec ghost corporate 8.5
[17:41:07] <quux> punkcut, encoding anything in legalese makes it more difficult
[17:41:08] <Cpudan80> Correction - it was old
[17:41:14] <Cpudan80> quiet: I think I was on 8
[17:41:22] <quux> but the base intent is quite simple.
[17:41:26] <punkcut> of course.
[17:41:41] quiet stabs ISPConfig in the face.
[17:41:52] <cc77> Ok, I'm sick and tired of channel rules, for all you people that need MS programs/appz. I will just give you the link now!! Are your ready??? Its download.microsoft.com
[17:41:55] <quux> I mean, try to write a lawyer's version of 'thou shalt not jaywalk'
[17:42:16] <Cpudan80> cc77: what?
[17:42:24] <punkcut> but thats like saying. well we know your ok with spanish, even though english is your primary language. so were gonna make all these rules which can drastically change the way you can live your life and put them in spanish.
[17:42:32] quiet thinks cc77 is drunk.
[17:42:33] <quux> No
[17:43:01] punkcut thinks the entire legal system is an entire mess.
[17:43:06] <quux> punkcut, the base intent is still simple, concentrating on the legalese attempts to catch up with todday's tech is more rationalization
[17:43:14] CcSsNET [n=ccssnet@c-24-147-193-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[17:43:37] <punkcut> quux: of course the base intent is simple. but the base intent needs to be displayed and communicated simply and openly.
[17:43:44] <quux> the fact is, people want a new thing. and the old license metaphor is not applicable to that new thing
[17:43:46] <punkcut> quux: otherwise it seems to me to be quite decietful.
[17:44:10] <quux> add to this the ease of theft in a networked world, and what you have is a mess.
[17:44:32] CcSsNET [n=ccssnet@c-24-147-193-135.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[17:45:21] <quux> If the market had stayed honest, this would have been resolved more easily
[17:45:35] <mezoko> http://www.runtime.org/dixml.htm
[17:45:45] <scratchme> Runtime.org has nice stuff.
[17:45:48] <mezoko> What do you gyt think of that? It seems pretty good, and exactly what i need
[17:45:56] <mezoko> s/gyt/guys
[17:45:58] <quiet> wait... what are we talking about here??  windows licensing?
[17:46:04] <brianw> haha
[17:46:09] <quiet> doesn't anyone REALLY care what that says?
[17:46:14] <quux> If people had just said: "what you're selling is not what I want, so I won't buy it or use it" ... vendors could have responded much more easily
[17:46:15] <quiet> except for microsoft.
[17:46:16] <mezoko> quiet, no I wantd to make an "image" of my sister windows xp install
[17:46:38] <scratchme> mezoko:  if you make a bartpe disc, looks fine.
[17:46:43] <quiet> mezoko, just as a backup? or to be duplicated to another machine, or what?
[17:46:54] <quux> but noo ... we had to get caught up in a million ways to bring hnesty back to the market
[17:46:58] <mezoko> quiet, just as a backup so I won't have to reinstall if somethign goes wrong
[17:47:15] <quiet> you can use ghost, or even use a linux livecd and dd
[17:47:24] <quiet> but if you don't know *nix, i wouldn't bother with that route.
[17:47:32] <mezoko> quiet, well ghost isn't free
[17:47:33] <scratchme> quiet: He's allergic to spending money I think.  Like 99% of the people in here.
[17:47:40] <mezoko> quiet, dd will make the file the same size as the partition
[17:47:41] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has quit IRC: 
[17:47:46] <quiet> you can try g4u, not sure if it can do windows images?
[17:48:02] <mezoko> though I wonder if just dd'ing the mbr and taring up the /mnt/win files would work
[17:48:15] <quiet> well... so go get ghost from torrentspy or thepiratebay or something if you're that concerned about it.
[17:48:20] <quiet> or make your sister pay for it?
[17:48:28] <quiet> fuck, the home version is only like $40 at best buy
[17:48:30] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has joined ##windows
[17:48:31] LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined ##windows
[17:48:35] <quux> quiet: we do not advocate piracy here.
[17:48:47] Locutus2k [n=homer@70.88.58.202] has quit IRC: 
[17:48:50] <quux> out of respect for freenode, for starters
[17:48:55] Prohibited [n=Prohhhh@74.129.28.170] has left ##windows: "WHORNY"
[17:49:01] <mezoko> quiet, just made her pay $40 fo virus software
[17:49:10] <quiet> that was dumb.
[17:49:13] <scratchme> quiet: Amazon has 2003 for about $27.
[17:49:14] <quiet> AVG works just fine.
[17:49:19] <quiet> ^^
[17:49:24] <mezoko> NOD32 is better IMO
[17:49:35] <quiet> nod32 is nice... but not necessary.
[17:50:02] <mezoko> quiet, I can't risk any loss of files
[17:50:26] <scratchme> If you run sdelete first, g4u should work decently.
[17:50:48] <scratchme> You just need someplace to hold your files though.
[17:50:48] <mezoko> scratchme, sdelete is what?
[17:50:57] <scratchme> Wipes empty areas of your HD.
[17:50:58] <mezoko> scratchme, yeah I got place to put them
[17:51:08] <scratchme> Where all the deleted files sit.
[17:51:15] <scratchme> Deleted files still take space and have data.
[17:51:22] <mezoko> scratchme, is that a windows tool or linux tool?
[17:51:28] <scratchme> Just that it looks empty so they get overwritten anytime the OS feels like it.
[17:51:33] <scratchme> sysinternals.com
[17:51:39] <scratchme> Windows.
[17:52:22] <scratchme> It seems to be designed to restore to the same disk though.
[17:52:27] <mezoko> scratchme, ok cool, let me try to do this in my vmware first
[17:52:30] <scratchme> So be aware and read if you plan to upgrade using this method.
[17:52:45] <scratchme> bbl
[17:52:48] <mezoko> scratchme, thats fine, it'd be for the same computer anyways
[17:52:49] <mezoko> thanks
[17:53:45] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has quit IRC: 
[17:54:13] Ragedragon [n=Dragon@lns-bzn-60-82-254-235-236.adsl.proxad.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)
[17:55:47] aao_pwner [n=aao_pwne@c-24-21-91-140.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[17:57:00] Cymage_ [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] has joined ##windows
[17:57:24] Cymage [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] has quit IRC: Nick collision from services.
[17:57:35] Cymage_ [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] is now known as Cymage
[17:58:02] <Cymage> been a while since that has happened
[17:58:25] mabus [i=mabus@judecca.aculei.net] has quit IRC: K-lined
[17:59:13] Locutus2k [n=homer@207.59.126.34] has joined ##windows
[17:59:16] <Locutus2k> back.
[18:01:53] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has joined ##windows
[18:02:44] ClayG [n=clay@c-66-177-69-223.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##windows
[18:03:16] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[18:03:21] <ClayG> Iif you could have a new Dell notebook or a new HP notebook which would you choose?
[18:03:31] <pinPoint> dv9033cl
[18:03:36] <pinPoint> its got the hdmi output
[18:03:43] <HentaiXP> thinkpad
[18:03:46] <ClayG> hdm?
[18:03:51] <ClayG> hdmi i men?
[18:03:55] <HentaiXP> for TVs
[18:03:57] kidem [n=kidem@207.255.163.76] has joined ##windows
[18:03:58] quiet [n=quiet@unixcorps/staff/quiet] has quit IRC: "Leaving"
[18:04:00] <ClayG> besides that
[18:04:04] <ClayG> dell or hp?
[18:04:05] <pinPoint> high definition multmedia input
[18:04:13] <ClayG> if you didnt care about tv in/out
[18:04:13] <ClayG> lol
[18:04:14] <HentaiXP> thinkpad still
[18:04:22] <pinPoint> ClayG, i have heard a dell for 2yres+
[18:04:29] <Locutus2k> ClayG: for what its worth... we have a bunch of compaq notebooks and thus far they've not caused ay problems.
[18:04:35] <pinPoint> thinkpads are exticnt
[18:04:41] <ClayG> man i just bought a dv6000, i LOVE it
[18:04:42] <quux> When you are just asking brand names, what you're really asking is "what's their support repuation?"
[18:04:47] <ClayG> but HP has been crappy about giving me a restore disk
[18:04:49] <ClayG> they want to charge
[18:04:54] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has quit IRC: "Passed out in the bathtub with a midget."
[18:04:59] <ClayG> i ended up returning it
[18:05:03] <Locutus2k> ClayG: create it when you get it
[18:05:03] <pinPoint> heh
[18:05:16] <Locutus2k> the first thing you do is burn the disc...
[18:05:24] <Locutus2k> people leave them go until they needed one and then have a fit about it.
[18:05:25] <ClayG> it was the principal, you talk to a nice person in the Us before you  buy it then when you need something you are talking to Ghandi
[18:05:26] <kidem> man where the hell in xhat is the when minimize go to nitification area
[18:05:34] <pinPoint> or nuke the entire disk and use your desktop winxp pro disk :)
[18:05:39] <ClayG> yeah i had the notebook for 3 days
[18:05:50] <ClayG> regardless of the whys, they should include a hard copy of the OS
[18:06:02] <pinPoint> used to not anymore
[18:06:04] <ClayG> instead they stick it on a partition, but that is neither here nor there
[18:06:16] <quux> that's simple enough to overcome
[18:06:31] <ClayG> so i returned it, im thinking of getting a dell that is a little better (slickdeals.net saved the day)  and i maybuy it
[18:06:31] <pinPoint> dv9033 is core2 duo 5600
[18:06:36] <pinPoint> 2gb ddr2 ram
[18:06:49] <ClayG> but the dv9x is big and has less battery power
[18:06:54] <quux> Just call the salesdude. Tell him you insist on a 'real' (not recovery) Windows CD with your hardware
[18:06:58] <Locutus2k> I have had HP units for years and they've never let me down.. the dells howwever... meh...
[18:07:04] <ClayG> then the dv6000 which still died at 2 hours
[18:07:21] <ClayG> yeah i love the notebook, as far as product i was in love
[18:07:23] <Locutus2k> dell to me is ultra cheap hardware... plan to replace it in 2 years
[18:07:25] <pinPoint> dv6174
[18:07:29] <pinPoint> quux, ...
[18:07:36] <pinPoint> do you know hp had a deal with costco
[18:07:41] <quux> If they refuse to provide the CD, or charge more than you wish to pay: next vendor!
[18:07:43] <pinPoint> has*
[18:08:07] <pinPoint> we get laptops 1month ahead of everyone!
[18:08:11] <pinPoint> and desktops
[18:08:23] <ClayG> I guess i'll keep monitoring slickdeals for the next deal on an HP and just rebuy it for half price
[18:08:32] <scratchme> Costco requires some deal with every vendor they do business with.
[18:08:32] <quux> meh. having taken a few HP laptops apart, I would not own one
[18:08:38] <ClayG> lol bestbuy had a deal a week or so ago for a hpdv6xsomething for half price
[18:09:05] <ClayG> yeah but often a Costco deal can't touch the rebate values at BB/CC/OD/CUSA
[18:09:06] <pinPoint> scratchme, we sell them quicker most times
[18:09:13] <scratchme> ClayG: Those are often for the first 3 people who claw their way into the store.
[18:09:26] sparklemotion05 [n=sparklem@static-69-95-251-9.alb.choiceone.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
[18:09:53] <pinPoint> ClayG, and our return policy tastes like candy!
[18:09:53] <scratchme> ClayG: Although, Costco Rebates are among the most painless I've ever filled out.
[18:09:58] <ClayG> sometimes scratchme
[18:09:59] <ClayG> http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=331971&highlight=dv2000
[18:10:09] <ClayG> here is a special i missed, it happened about a week before i even wanted a notebook
[18:10:14] <pinPoint> scratchme, you do them online?
[18:10:23] <scratchme> Also, yes, I returned a monitor almost 2 years later, got a full cash refund.
[18:10:23] <ClayG> 549 and a free all in one printer for 549
[18:10:30] <ClayG> lol yeah that aint bad
[18:10:33] <scratchme> Costco's return policy is excellent.
[18:10:47] <pinPoint> ClayG, we have that laptop for 839.99
[18:10:49] <Azrael_-> is there a software to record all sound going through the head-phones (best to mp3)?
[18:10:52] <pinPoint> the dv2174
[18:11:01] <scratchme> pinPoint: I do online and in store shopping at Costco.
[18:11:02] <pinPoint> AMDX2 64 too
[18:11:10] <scratchme> Less instore these days since it's an hour's drive away.
[18:11:26] <ClayG> pinPoint, What type of cpu?
[18:11:34] <pinPoint> AMDx2 64
[18:11:45] <scratchme> Show me a C2D laptop for under $600 then I'll be interested ;)
[18:12:08] <ClayG> scratchme, keep looking at slickdeals and fatwallet
[18:12:14] <ClayG> you'll find one for under 600 easy
[18:12:25] <scratchme> I don't really need to be tempted.
[18:12:26] <scratchme> hehe
[18:12:28] <pinPoint> or you can buy mine.. its 2yrs old :)
[18:12:34] <scratchme> I already have a P-M 1.4Ghz
[18:12:34] <ClayG> only ting about the dv2000 (and i will admit, it is the notebook i wanted at first) is the max video ram is 128
[18:12:37] Linuturk [n=Linuturk@12.11.93.98] has joined ##windows
[18:12:37] <scratchme> 2GB Ram.
[18:12:39] <ClayG> the dv6000 can go 256
[18:12:46] <quux> who mentioned tigerdirect had XP with a vista upgrade coupon?
[18:12:53] <ClayG> quux, all do now
[18:12:55] <scratchme> quux, frb did.
[18:13:01] <ClayG> if bought beyond oct 15 (somewhere around there)
[18:13:02] <jetx> hey quux... you're not dead.
[18:13:05] <pinPoint> quux, we do at Costco too
[18:13:07] <jetx> cool
[18:13:08] <scratchme> He mentioned tigerdirect, and someone else.
[18:13:15] <quux> Clay: for software-only purchase?
[18:13:19] <pinPoint> all computers after October 26 get free upgrade to Vista
[18:13:33] <quux> right. I mean *without* buying a computer
[18:13:40] <pinPoint> lol
[18:13:43] <pinPoint> good luck
[18:13:51] <ClayG> hmm good question, i would think, something to do with vendors getting beaten becaue people want to wait longer to get a computer that comes with vista, so they are offering the vouchers to get the sale now
[18:14:02] Linuturk [n=Linuturk@12.11.93.98] has left ##windows: "Leaving"
[18:14:03] <ClayG> i would imagine they would want to unload copies of XP using the ame strategy
[18:14:07] <quux> Oh, I don't think it exists, but someone said it did. I'm just running this down now.
[18:14:11] <mezoko> Does anyone know if its possible to include a network driver in the bartpe cd?
[18:14:15] <jetx> so will vista not be out for xmas?
[18:14:16] <scratchme> [15:13:22] <frb> some uk site had it, and tigerdirect has it too
[18:14:18] Sent part request, waiting for reply...
### Log session terminated at Thu Nov 2 18:14:18 2006 ###
### Log session started at Thu Nov 2 18:14:23 2006 ###
[18:14:23] scratchme [n=kvirc@nc-76-3-205-133.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined ##windows
[18:14:23] Channel topic is: Topic for ##windows is: RIP lilo (freenode's founder & head of staff, Rob Levin) || http://freenode.net/news.shtml || ##windows channel Guide lines = http://windows.jot.com || During the course of the day, if someone is being helped in the channel, and you wish to have idle conversation, please join ##windows-offtopic
[18:14:23] Topic was set by Arrick!*@* on Wed Nov 1 23:45:37 2006
[18:14:24] niven.freenode.net [*@*] has set mode +tncPf ##overflow
[18:14:24] Channel was created at Fri Oct 7 15:11:46 2005
[18:14:24] Channel synchronized in 0.844 seconds
[18:14:25] <ClayG> specially since they can just stick vista on the notebooks, in the case of a peice of software, it has to get scrapped
[18:14:25] <quux> jetx: no it will not
[18:14:27] <pinPoint> i dont think so
[18:14:30] <scratchme> Hrm.
[18:14:32] <jetx> yes you can mezoko , don't ask me how though
[18:14:43] <mezoko> hmm
[18:14:44] <quux> consumer release is set for Jan 1
[18:14:47] <scratchme> CTRL + End doesn't scroll to the end of the chats in kvirc.
[18:14:48] <scratchme> heh
[18:14:51] <frb> http://www.aria.co.uk/ProductInfoComm.asp?ID=16054
[18:15:03] <ClayG> that deal for the dv2000 at costco is good
[18:15:04] <frb> http://www.aria.co.uk/ProductInfoComm.asp?ID=25141
[18:15:11] <ClayG> i didn't want to sound like it wasn't it's VERy good to be honest
[18:15:17] <ClayG> just want 256 video ram
[18:15:19] <scratchme> ClayG: Costco is awesome for buying monitors.
[18:15:22] <ClayG> lol, heck maybe i might check that out
[18:15:28] <ClayG> is that deal available for all members
[18:15:30] <ClayG> or employees only
[18:15:34] <scratchme> They'll let you return a monitor upto 2 yrs.  I only did that because the monitor was going bad.
[18:15:38] <ClayG> and do you have a link, i know this is lazy but
[18:15:38] <ClayG> heh
[18:15:39] <quux> frb: got a link to the tiger deal?
[18:15:43] <mezoko> jetx, I did a bit of looking and there a driver folder for the net :P
[18:15:47] <ClayG> scratchme, the costco site claims 6 months
[18:15:54] <scratchme> I emailed asking for an extended warranty.
[18:15:56] <pinPoint> ClayG, everyone
[18:16:00] <ClayG> still AWSOme considering walmart is 3 months and up until now i have thougth them unrivalled
[18:16:03] <scratchme> They emailed back saying I Can return upto 2 yrs.
[18:16:03] <ClayG> hmmm
[18:16:08] <ClayG> damn man,
[18:16:12] <frb> quux: tiger removed the listing since this morning
[18:16:13] <ClayG> i dunno, i wanted the smaller one any way
[18:16:26] <ClayG> but the 6000 is lovely, 2000 is sweet too
[18:16:26] <frb> We're sorry, the product you have searched for is no longer available for sale.
[18:16:34] <quux> right. I suspect it does not really exist
[18:16:35] <scratchme> I haven't had to return one recently, but I returned one about 6 months ago, and they did it.
[18:16:38] <jetx> you wanted a smaller monitor? zomg anathema
[18:16:45] <quux> betcha aria removes it too
[18:16:55] <pinPoint> ClayG, we carry the 6174 :)
[18:17:01] <pinPoint> for 1149
[18:17:03] <ClayG> which is that
[18:17:07] <ClayG> gimem a link man
[18:17:07] <ClayG> lol
[18:17:10] <scratchme> jetx: my wife has a 37" monitor, and she says 37" monitor is a bit to big.
[18:17:20] <ClayG> i payed 12 something for mine
[18:17:21] <pinPoint> Core2 Duo/2GB ram/120GB storage
[18:17:25] <ClayG> then haggled a 80 dollar credit
[18:17:26] <pinPoint> 5500
[18:17:32] <jetx> she's obviously not into gaming heavy'
[18:17:36] <ClayG> claiming dell had a model like it for less (saw that done on a forum)
[18:17:41] <scratchme> jetx: no, but she does play UO.
[18:18:03] <scratchme> I like a good deal, but chasing down fatwallet, and slickdeals is lots of work sometimes.
[18:18:20] <scratchme> Might as well just go work, and pay extra and just buy when an obviously good deal comes along.
[18:18:39] <jetx> anandtech has a forum for finding hot deals and rebates and coupons and stuff.. or did
[18:18:59] <jetx> lots wind up being free with the rebate and stuff
[18:19:32] orev [n=orev@mail2.mktinsights-ny.com] has left ##windows
[18:19:44] <scratchme> Free after rebate needs to be a good deal before rebate.
[18:19:55] <scratchme> Otherwise, if you never get the rebate, it was a waste.
[18:20:08] <ClayG> scratchme, agreed rebates can be hell
[18:20:13] <scratchme> Which reminds me.
[18:20:19] <scratchme> I need to fill out the rebate on a case I bought.
[18:20:21] Cymage [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] has quit IRC: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[18:20:22] <scratchme> $30.
[18:20:26] <pinPoint> we have a nice desktop too
[18:20:34] Shadowcat [i=shadowca@c80-217-204-134.bredband.comhem.se] has joined ##windows
[18:20:37] <scratchme> I should give someone half my rebate money to handle all of them.
[18:20:52] <pinPoint> E6400/2GB Ram/600GB storage/7500 video/ 1699
[18:21:04] <frb> I decided that the vista upgrade isn't worth it
[18:21:30] <HentaiXP> dur guam
[18:21:41] <frb> if I just keep that $150, and spend it on a new computer next year, it will be much more cost effective
[18:21:46] <ClayG> how interchangeable are noteboot harddrives?
[18:21:53] <ClayG> could i swap a hd harddrive into a dell
[18:22:01] <frb> ClayG: there are 2 sizes, but normally they work fine
[18:22:04] <ClayG> there is a lady that needs her notebook fixed and needs  a hard drive
[18:22:04] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has joined ##windows
[18:22:06] <jetx> i have a tendency to farkoff my rebates and never send them in :/
[18:22:10] <ClayG> i might get the cheap drive on thehp
[18:22:15] <scratchme> frb, there is another size too.
[18:22:16] <ClayG> then buy a good one off ebay, give her my old one
[18:22:16] <Cpudan80> ClayG: You can exchange them easily
[18:22:19] <ClayG> nice
[18:22:19] <scratchme> 1.8"
[18:22:21] <Cpudan80> Just buy the right size
[18:22:22] <ClayG> thanks
[18:22:27] <jetx> which is what the rebate ppl count on
[18:22:28] <frb> scratchme: is there? I just knew of the 2 sizes
[18:22:32] <scratchme> 2.5" has 9mm, and 12mm
[18:22:38] <frb> the "normal" size, and the ultraslim that sony's used
[18:22:42] <quux> looks like I was wrong. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16832116175
[18:22:43] <scratchme> For the ultra portables, some use the 1.8" drives.
[18:23:08] <Cpudan80> quux: Yeah - newegg is givin the upgrade
[18:23:21] Cymage [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] has joined ##windows
[18:24:06] <scratchme> Heh.
[18:24:12] <scratchme> The pic has a sheet of "READ THIS FIRST"
[18:24:16] Cymage [n=james@unaffiliated/cymage] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[18:24:18] <pinPoint> lol
[18:24:19] <scratchme> But the print is too small to see in the newegg pic viewer.
[18:24:24] <scratchme> =/
[18:24:59] zoomsc [n=zoomsc@61.29.36.194] has joined ##windows
[18:25:23] <zoomsc> does anyone know how to increase the windows xp pro inbound connection from 10 to 20
[18:25:27] <Cpudan80> I wonder what it says
[18:25:28] <quux> this is what the upgrade coupon looks like: http://www.mwave.com/mwave/spechr/rebates/AA52140upgrade.pdf
[18:25:29] <scratchme> So off-hand can anyone think of a great business reason to use Vista?
[18:25:30] <ClayG> pinPoint, how do you buy it from costco?
[18:25:32] <ClayG> just walk in
[18:25:36] <ClayG> or does it have to be ordered
[18:25:40] <Cpudan80> zoomsc: The who and the what and the who?
[18:25:46] <Cpudan80> What are you trying to do?
[18:25:47] <pinPoint> yep
[18:25:54] <pinPoint> walk in
[18:26:01] <ClayG> dang
[18:26:03] <scratchme> quux, doesn't work.
[18:26:13] <zoomsc> windows xp maximum inbound connection is 10 concurrent users to access the share drive in it
[18:26:15] <ClayG> im looking noew,if it has the 256 video memory, webcam/mic and bluetooht im in for one
[18:26:19] <ClayG> like within the hour
[18:26:19] <ClayG> lool
[18:26:22] <zoomsc> we would like to increase it by 20
[18:26:30] <quux> scratchme: I have it open in foxit right now
[18:26:43] <scratchme> I punched it in, but it won't open.
[18:26:43] <Cpudan80> Hmm
[18:26:46] <quux> it complained about some extra component needed, but I disregarded that
[18:26:48] cc77 [n=gaim@c51471443.cable.wanadoo.nl] has left ##windows
[18:26:50] <Cpudan80> I dont know about that
[18:26:58] <Cpudan80> Its kind-of a licensing thing
[18:27:00] <scratchme> Yeah, it won't even download for me though.
[18:27:11] <scratchme> Maybe they prevent direct linking.
[18:27:15] <scratchme> You got the referring page?
[18:27:19] <Cpudan80> scratchme: It doesn't have the READ THIS thing
[18:27:28] <quux> http://www.mwave.com/mwave/Skusearch.hmx?scriteria=AA15070
[18:27:31] <Cpudan80> I have it open
[18:27:41] <Cpudan80> Adobe crashed (or will
[18:27:53] <Cpudan80> but that's normal for me
[18:27:59] <Cpudan80> I can never get Adobe to behave
[18:28:19] zoomsc [n=zoomsc@61.29.36.194] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[18:28:49] <quux> here's how you'll upgrade: https://upgradeweb.moduslink.com/vista/
[18:29:02] <ClayG> pinPoint, i dont see the 6174 there. they say you can customiz it
[18:29:13] <ClayG> but surely you can't get that in store, they would have to have hundered of different configs
[18:29:43] Trixsey [n=secret@c-2b9072d5.012-2011-73746f31.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit IRC: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)
[18:29:46] <JonathanD> hello
[18:30:07] <scratchme> So you gotta buy this copy with a drive cable or something?
[18:30:14] <scratchme> Considering it's OEM ?
[18:30:35] <Cpudan80> with a drive cable?
[18:30:38] <Cpudan80> what?
[18:30:40] LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[18:30:41] Trixsey [n=secret@c-2b9072d5.012-2011-73746f31.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined ##windows
[18:31:27] <quux> Notice the wording of the upgrade coupon. the big print at the top
[18:31:42] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has joined ##windows
[18:31:51] <scratchme> Says it wants you to have it preinstalled by a builder.
[18:31:58] <quux> yup
[18:32:09] <frb> standard OEM rules apply
[18:32:10] CppIsWeird [i=Need2Ble@pool-71-241-3-25.norf.east.verizon.net] has quit IRC: 
[18:32:13] Drunken_Irony [i=AZ58309_@azureus/t/Drunken-Irony] has quit IRC: "Passed out in the bathtub with a midget."
[18:32:17] SonicChao [n=SonicCha@dpc67142187100.direcpc.com] has joined ##windows
[18:32:20] <quux> and number 2. a receipt for a PC preloaded with XP
[18:32:24] jacko911 [n=none@82.195.111.248] has joined ##windows
[18:32:32] <scratchme> quux, I'm a builder.
[18:32:36] <quux> this smells fishy
[18:32:40] <scratchme> John's HomeBrew Building services.
[18:32:42] <frb> those can be easily produced
[18:32:49] <quux> uhuh
[18:32:57] <Cpudan80> umm ok
[18:32:58] <quux> So you're saying its easy to lie
[18:32:58] <scratchme> Most of my machines are homebrew.
[18:33:17] <scratchme> I think OEM is still valid for home builders.
[18:33:18] <Cpudan80> And how many of those have qualified for Vista upgrades?
[18:33:20] <quux> Are you an Authorized System Builder?
[18:33:21] <pinPoint> ClayG, not at the stores you cant
[18:33:22] <Cpudan80> <none>
[18:33:27] <pinPoint> you buy it as it is
[18:33:28] <scratchme> It doesn't say authorized does it?
[18:33:33] <quux> yes
[18:33:35] <quux> it does
[18:33:37] <scratchme> Hrm.
[18:33:55] <Cpudan80> Just buy a really cheap dell or something
[18:33:59] scratchme recalls a peanuts cartoon.
[18:34:05] <Cpudan80> then use that receipt
[18:34:16] <Cpudan80> except - they might notice that the specs wont work
[18:34:39] <quux> For Distribution Only with a qualifying new PC preloaded with Windows® XP Professional or Windows XP Tablet PC Edition from an Authorized System Builder
[18:34:39] <scratchme> "Watcha doing." "Mom said we have to ask permission to get cookies." "Okay." "So can I have permission to have a cookie?" "Sure.  Can I" "Sure."
[18:34:40] <ClayG> one last thing. is it easy to buy the cheapest one and stick a better cpu in it?
[18:34:42] <ppj1010> Is there a program that can ping an IP RANGE?
[18:34:51] <ClayG> one last thing. is it easy to buy the cheapest one and stick a better cpu in it?
[18:34:51] <ppj1010> I need to go through my LAN and see what IP's are open
[18:34:53] <ClayG> sorry
[18:34:55] <Cpudan80> ppj1010: Advanced IP scanner
[18:34:59] <Cpudan80> www.radmin.com
[18:35:00] <ppj1010> cool
[18:35:01] <ppj1010> thanks
[18:35:06] <ClayG> i hit up instead of enter, i wanted to know if that might be MORE expensive then buying it straight up
[18:35:49] <jacko911> Hey, I just put an XP install on a sata drive fine, (using F6 and a floppy) now i want to put the 2nd boot on, again I used F6, the same floppy and it says " File txtsetup.oem caused an unexpect error (1024) at line 1747 d:\xpsprtm\base\boot\setup\oemdisk.c. Press any key to continue
[18:35:49] <quux> OK, I'd love to get that price for Vista Business Ed ... but I'm not about to lie to do so.
[18:36:04] <jacko911> Whys the error on D:\ Floppy is A:\
[18:36:07] CppIsWeird [i=Need2Ble@pool-71-241-3-25.norf.east.verizon.net] has joined ##windows
[18:36:21] <scratchme> quux: Do you know any "authorized" system builders?
[18:36:35] <quux> I used to be one
[18:36:48] <scratchme> Maybe a local store would install it for you then.
[18:37:00] <ClayG> if cost was no option what noteboks would you guys get?
[18:37:01] <ClayG> any brand
[18:37:11] <quux> iirc, it's not hard and costs nothing to do it. But lets get real. This is just more justifying ways to skirt the intention
[18:37:12] <scratchme> I'd buy a toughbook or something.
[18:37:31] richard-blaine [n=richard-@cm190.gamma91.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##windows
[18:37:31] <quux> ClayG: Easy! Thinkpad.
[18:37:56] <richard-blaine> hello, im wondering how do i redirect output of a dos command to file, while at the same time still showing that output on the screen?
[18:37:59] <ClayG> thinkpads? are those still any good?
[18:38:07] <quux> yes they are
[18:38:14] <Cpudan80> Thinkpads are the best
[18:38:20] <scratchme> http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/rugged_reliable.asp
[18:38:23] <scratchme> Something like that.
[18:38:29] <quux> richard-blaine: multiple ways, actually
[18:38:30] <Cpudan80> You can run over it with your car - it will still work
[18:38:42] <richard-blaine> quux : enlighten me with one, please?
[18:38:48] <quux> richard-blaine: one would be to just redirect to the file, but tail the file
[18:38:57] <richard-blaine> no, i want it
[18:39:02] <richard-blaine> no, i want it "real time"
[18:39:16] <quux> another would be to have two lines in the batch: one sending output to ECHO, on sending it to file
[18:39:21] <quux> s/on/one
[18:39:29] <richard-blaine> no, it
[18:39:37] <richard-blaine> no, it's not the output of the command i type
[18:39:39] <quux> unxutils includes a TEE command
[18:39:53] <richard-blaine> unixutils
[18:39:56] <scratchme> Thinkpads are better than toughbooks?
[18:39:56] <richard-blaine> hmm
[18:39:57] <quux> yes, I get it. I've written many batchfiles that do this
[18:39:57] <ClayG> lemme look into those right quick, i kinda like the built in webcam and bluetooth that hp has
[18:40:04] <ClayG> im checking the toughbook alos
[18:40:04] <ClayG> lol
[18:40:14] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[18:40:16] <pinPoint> scratchme, i hear those toughbooks are EMP resistant
[18:40:22] <Cpudan80> scratchme: probably not in terms of toughness
[18:40:25] <quux> toughbooks have no trackpoint, case closed!
[18:40:37] <Cpudan80> quux: I hate the touchpads
[18:40:44] <Cpudan80> I need that pointing stick thing
[18:40:46] <scratchme> Some do.
[18:40:54] <quux> none do. I checked.
[18:40:56] <scratchme> Hrm.
[18:40:59] <scratchme> Oh not the pad.
[18:41:01] <scratchme> The erasor.
[18:41:02] Shadowcat puts quux into a toughbook case and solders it shut
[18:41:09] <scratchme> The pencil eraser joystick.
[18:41:11] <scratchme> Right?
[18:41:12] Azrael_- [i=moro@p57A5E1C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit IRC: 
[18:41:15] <quux> right
[18:41:21] <scratchme> I hate those.
[18:41:21] <scratchme> haha
[18:41:24] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has joined ##windows
[18:41:33] <jacko911> No suggestions?
[18:41:36] <Cpudan80> scratchme: I love them :P
[18:41:49] <richard-blaine> apparently i need this "tee" program for dos
[18:41:49] <Cpudan80> jacko911: For...?
[18:41:54] <jacko911> Hey, I just put an XP install on a sata drive fine, (using F6 and a floppy) now i want to put the 2nd boot on, again I used F6, the same floppy and it says " File txtsetup.oem caused an unexpect error (1024) at line 1747 d:\xpsprtm\base\boot\setup\oemdisk.c. Press any key to continue
[18:41:55] <scratchme> These look nice:  http://www.panasonic.com/business/toughbook/business-rugged.asp
[18:41:56] <jacko911> Whys the error on D:\ Floppy is A:\
[18:41:59] amee2k|z1zZ [n=thomas@p5497E50F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##windows
[18:42:02] <scratchme> T5 has 10 hr battery life.
[18:42:08] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[18:42:19] <ClayG> i saw that
[18:42:21] <ClayG> amazine
[18:42:26] <ClayG> amazing,...er
[18:42:32] <ClayG> they dont look that hot
[18:42:36] <ClayG> but that should be the last concern
[18:42:46] <pinPoint> scratchme, but none of them are dual core huh?
[18:42:53] <jacko911> they are hot scratchme.. keeyboard looks kinda deep though
[18:42:54] <scratchme> T5 is 12.1" screen 3.5lbs.
[18:42:55] <pinPoint> just centrino
[18:43:04] <scratchme> True.
[18:43:15] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has joined ##windows
[18:43:23] <Cpudan80> jacko911: So - it goes up to when it has to reboot - and then fails?
[18:43:24] <scratchme> But my laptop is about 7lbs without the A/C adapter.
[18:43:24] <quux> richard-blaine: can you pastebin your script? I'll put a solution in it in 5 mins or less - or your money back
[18:43:33] <scratchme> This thing must be like a feather.
[18:43:36] <jacko911> No,
[18:43:40] <jacko911> Cpudan80 it installed fine
[18:43:47] <Shadowcat> quux: you said that to me two months ago, and I still haven't gotten a refund :P
[18:43:50] <Cpudan80> Windows is installed? Ok
[18:43:53] Shadowcat sues quux
[18:43:55] <jacko911> I'm now wanting to install a dual boot with XP
[18:43:58] <quux> richard-blaine: http://pastebin.ca
[18:44:00] <scratchme> Toughbook 74 is dual core.
[18:44:09] <jacko911> But when trying to load the sata driver its giving an error on D:\
[18:44:13] quux looks for the money shadowcat sent.
[18:44:15] <jacko911> when the driver is on a:\
[18:44:19] quux finds it ... not
[18:44:21] amee2k|zZzZ [n=thomas@p5497F290.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit IRC: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
[18:44:26] <Cpudan80> jacko911: Does the PC work?
[18:44:32] <Cpudan80> Minus the dual boot?
[18:44:40] <jacko911> yep
[18:44:43] <richard-blaine> quux : no, there's no script, it's simple as: dir > log.txt (but this wont do, because i wont see any output on the screen)
[18:44:45] <jacko911> boots the new os fine
[18:44:54] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[18:45:16] <ClayG> 7% cash back on lenovas
[18:45:24] <Cpudan80> jacko911: What's the other OS you want to DB with?
[18:45:27] skyyy [n=pwnij@adsl-146-111-130.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined ##windows
[18:45:28] <quux> OK. (dir >log.txt) & (dir)
[18:45:55] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has joined ##windows
[18:45:57] <jacko911> Just an XP and XP DB
[18:46:32] <quux> or get tee.exe from http://unxutils.sourceforge.net/
[18:46:32] <richard-blaine> no quux, say the command be :  (erase C: > log.txt) & (erase C:) ??
[18:46:33] <Cpudan80> That makes no sense
[18:46:34] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[18:46:40] <Cpudan80> Why are you trying to DB XP and XP?
[18:46:42] <richard-blaine> yeah, i just downloaded it
[18:46:48] <richard-blaine> the tee for dos
[18:47:33] <quux> grr. see, it helps when the question asked is actually the question you want answered ..
[18:47:52] <quux> </rant>
[18:48:05] <jacko911> Ok. I'd like to do that as my sys has two jobs. It heavy on apps and heavy on gaming. I run dual booted system so that Boot 1 is app spercific. Boot 2 is gaming spercific. The app boot will have like 45+ process running on bootup, the gaming boot will sit at around 20 process.
[18:48:23] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has joined ##windows
[18:48:23] <richard-blaine> err,.. i thought there's some kind of built-in syntax in DOS for that, that's why I asked
[18:48:31] <richard-blaine> the syntax, not a "third party" apps
[18:48:47] <Cpudan80> Ok - I got it now
[18:48:59] <Cpudan80> So - it gives you an error
[18:49:04] <quux> Well, first, getting a realtime log of erase commands is kinda silly
[18:49:07] <Cpudan80> Are you using the same disk and install procedure?
[18:49:32] <richard-blaine> quux : no, the erase command is my example of not getting the same output on the second attempt.
[18:49:42] <jacko911> Yep
[18:49:50] <jacko911> Its all the same, even the drive.
[18:49:52] <quux> second, you could (erase c >log.txt) & (for /f %a in (log.txt) do echo %a)
[18:50:03] Shadowcat [i=shadowca@c80-217-204-134.bredband.comhem.se] has quit IRC: 
[18:50:04] <richard-blaine> err..
[18:50:08] <jacko911> Work floorless 1st time round, now its having problems with the F6 procedure
[18:50:11] <richard-blaine> it's alright
[18:50:14] <richard-blaine> i got this tee now
[18:50:21] chafe [n=chafe@fl-69-68-16-12.dyn.embarqhsd.net] has quit IRC: Remote closed the connection
[18:50:44] <jacko911> I think i'll format the floppy and put the drivers on it again
[18:50:54] <Cpudan80> yeah
[18:51:01] <Cpudan80> The thing prob went bad
[18:51:08] Azrael_- [i=moro@p57A5E1C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined ##windows
[18:51:20] <jacko911> i have no luck with floppys
[18:52:09] <richard-blaine> thanks for the help
[18:52:12] <richard-blaine> im off
[18:52:13] <quux> richard-blaine: not to beat a dead horse (except I'm beating it), but again, if you had given the actual objective, I'm betting there'd be a way to do it in cmd only ways
[18:52:15] Hoiriv [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-5495d82eb4ba5d9a] has joined ##windows
[18:52:19] <richard-blaine> oh
[18:52:20] <richard-blaine> okay
[18:52:22] <richard-blaine> i got your point
[18:52:39] TSCDan [n=Dan@cpe-72-226-227-240.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##windows
[18:52:49] <quux> anyway, no worries
[18:52:57] <richard-blaine> i need to go now, see you guys aroun
[18:52:57] <richard-blaine> d
[18:53:01] richard-blaine [n=richard-@cm190.gamma91.maxonline.com.sg] has quit IRC: 
[18:53:11] quux rants
[18:53:41] Shadow_mil2 [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has joined ##windows
[18:54:01] <quux> This is why tech support will always have high suckage. People who want to 'trick' the support person without giving away their actual objective, or with other incomplete truths.
[18:54:01] <TSCDan> Hey, I uninstalled terminal services on 2k3 server since I thought that the "allow remote connections to this computer" would stay checked; they didn't.  So now my remote box is just sitting there, and I don't want to tell my bro my password if I don't have to.  Is there a way that I can remotely reset the password?
[18:54:11] quux ends rant
[18:54:32] <quux> no, wait, I have more!
[18:54:59] <TSCDan> -reset +change
[18:55:00] <quux> What is it about technology that seems to breed this sort of secretiveness and rationalization of every. little. thing. ??
[18:55:32] <TSCDan> Everybody is scared of losing control of little things, and having personal info stolen?
[18:56:09] <Cpudan80> TSCDan: No - there is not
[18:56:11] schylerb [n=runner@204-174-85-8.static571.dsl.ucc-net.ca] has joined ##windows
[18:56:12] <quux> TSCDan: you still have admin access to termserv to the device?
[18:56:27] <Cpudan80> assuming that your answer to quux is no
[18:56:38] <TSCDan> quux, I can VPN in, but that's about it.  Oh, and FTP.
[18:56:43] <TSCDan> But I cannot remote desktop in.
[18:56:55] <quux> and you just want to change one users password?
[18:56:58] <TSCDan> Yup.
[18:57:09] <quux> psexec
[18:57:16] <TSCDan> ?
[18:57:17] <quux> and NET USER
[18:57:24] <schylerb> is there way i can make windows to use only 50% of my cpu usage?
[18:57:37] <quux> schylerb: no
[18:57:51] <Hoiriv> Question, are OEM windows licenses transferable legally?
[18:57:56] <quux> TSCDan: psexec comes from www.sysinternals.com, and is free
[18:58:06] <Cpudan80> Hoiriv: Yes.... of course
[18:58:09] <quux> Hoiriv: only if you transfer the PC too
[18:58:16] <Cpudan80> in fact - you can buy the OEM disks
[18:58:22] <Cpudan80> quux: You sure?
[18:58:25] <quux> Cpudan80: uhh, nope
[18:58:27] <Cpudan80> You can buy an OEM copy
[18:58:40] <TSCDan> quux, Is that assuming that I can telnet in?
[18:58:41] <quux> all oem copies must be bought with PCs
[18:58:42] <Hoiriv> Define transfer the PC
[18:58:43] Shadow_mil [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] has quit IRC: Operation timed out
[18:59:05] <jacko911> Alright so, SATA drivers freshly loaded and slighty different error now. File txtsetup.oem caused an unexpected error (512) at line 1747 in d:\xpsprtm\base\boot\setup\oemdisk.c.
[18:59:05] <Cpudan80> quux: You just had a Newegg link that had an OEM disk... ?
[18:59:08] <quux> TSCDan: no, psexec works kinda like telnet. except it does not require a telnet server
[18:59:12] <TSCDan> Ok
[18:59:23] <Hoiriv> Like suppose I'm gonna run linux on a machine I once had windows on
[18:59:25] <quux> Cpudan80: and frankly I think they are in violation
[18:59:46] <Hoiriv> Can I take that license and use it on another machine?
[18:59:49] <quux> the OEM license is pretty clear. Only system builders may buy such license
[19:00:03] <Cpudan80> Hoiriv: If its within your own home - fine
[19:00:05] <quux> Hoiriv: legally, no. technically ... yes but its a pain
[19:00:06] <Hoiriv> I'm not planning on selling that license
[19:00:08] <schylerb> is there way i can make windows to use only 50% of my cpu usage?
[19:00:20] <quux> schylerb: no
[19:00:26] <Cpudan80> schylerb: quux told you that twice now
[19:00:28] <DhunEideann> pretty sure its a no on that one. legally.
[19:00:29] <quux> And schylerb: why would you want to?
[19:00:48] <Hoiriv> I just wanna be able to use it on a different machine if I want
[19:01:04] <quux> Hoiriv: the license is quite clear on that point
[19:01:11] TSCDan [n=Dan@cpe-72-226-227-240.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit IRC: "Leaving"
[19:01:25] <schylerb> quux to stop overheating
[19:01:28] <DhunEideann> Hoiriv: changing the hardware also voids the warrenty.
[19:01:39] <quux> I'm not overheating, I'm just responding with facts
[19:01:44] <DhunEideann> hehe
[19:01:44] <Hoiriv> Like adding memory?
[19:02:12] <Cpudan80> Hoiriv: Yes
[19:02:23] <Cpudan80> Like - even opening the case without your OEMs permission
[19:02:24] <DhunEideann> Indeed, but if you were to read the whole OEM, you would have prob broke the OEM, just by reading it.
[19:02:26] <quux> schylerb: And of course asking, what's your real objective here. Knowing it, I might be able to give an acceptable solution
[19:02:29] <Hoiriv> Opening the casE?
[19:02:37] <JonathanD> Hoiriv: yup.
[19:02:54] <Cpudan80> Gateway used to plaster a sticker on it
[19:03:04] <Cpudan80> So you could not open it without breaking the sticker
[19:03:04] <JonathanD> lots of OEMs do.
[19:03:11] <Cpudan80> then it would read "VOID" on the side
[19:03:15] <jacko911> Ok so i just thought I cant seem to install the dualboot via the bootcd metho, what if i boot into the working install, and run the CD, can i instruct it from there which HD to put the OS onto?
[19:03:26] <Hoiriv> Well I guess I won't be getting an extended waranty then
[19:03:41] <Cpudan80> jacko911: Yes
[19:03:42] <Hoiriv> Cuz that's fing useless
[19:03:50] <quux> but that sticker was there to protect gateway's *hardware* warrantee ... it had nothing to do with Windows
[19:03:53] <Cpudan80> You should be able to select new install - then choose another part
[19:03:56] <DhunEideann> jacko911: yeah, given it is source based...or you do a harder install method.
[19:04:40] <jacko911> Cpudan80 the hd if brand new, so the space i'd like to install it to is unallocated, should i firstly user hardware manager to assing a fs to the rest of the space or will it pickup?
[19:04:41] <Hoiriv> Okay, practically speaking, can I use the serial from one machine on another in my situation?
[19:04:53] <DhunEideann> nope.
[19:05:03] <DhunEideann> legally.
[19:05:09] <Cpudan80> jacko911: Doesn't matter - the setup will see the HDD as unpart and empty
[19:05:19] <Hoiriv> I'm now talking practically
[19:05:21] <Cpudan80> so - you will know for sure which one to push :)
[19:05:34] <Cpudan80> Im not sure how this is going to work out though
[19:05:41] <DhunEideann> Hoiriv: i think so then.. given it is not a 're-install cd'
[19:05:54] <Cpudan80> Its going to overwrite the MBR - which will mess you up
[19:06:02] <quux> Hoiriv: practically, doing so will force a phone call to MS
[19:06:12] <Hoiriv> The CD that the OEM gives you is a reinstall CD
[19:06:26] <DhunEideann> Ok, well doubt it will work
[19:06:37] LeeJunFan [n=junfan@adsl-69-210-207-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined ##windows
[19:06:41] <DhunEideann> plus quux will get you!
[19:06:45] <Hoiriv> Isn't there a way around activation yet?
[19:06:45] <quux> and they *may* ask if you're basically transferring a legally unstransferrable license
[19:07:08] <DhunEideann> Hoiriv: such things should not be discussed here.
[19:07:25] <Hoiriv> What about a store bought copy?
[19:07:37] <quux> Naw. Look, I personally think breaking the license contract you agreed to by buying a thing is wrong. But I don't care that you do wrong; it's not my problem.
[19:07:55] <Hoiriv> And does the above also apply for XP home and media center?
[19:08:11] <quux> However, I also have a need to protect this channel and Freenode, so I dislike talking piracy and its myriad little relatives on this channel.
[19:08:47] <quux> The reason for that is simple: I don't wish to open us up to all sorts of legal maneuvering.
[19:08:52] TSCDan [n=Dan@cpe-72-226-227-240.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined ##windows
[19:09:02] <DhunEideann> Indeed.
[19:09:21] <TSCDan> quux, Thanks, psexec + net user fixed it :)  Now just gotta wait for my bro to come home :(
[19:09:43] <Hoiriv> What about a store bought copy?
[19:09:46] <DhunEideann> Hoiriv: if you want to get free licenses there are plenty of open source operating systems, whether they be GNU or BSD licenses.
[19:09:54] <Hoiriv> And does the above also apply for XP home and media center?
[19:10:07] <quux> Hoiriv, there are basically two Windows licenses you can get: OEM, which becomes locked to the first computer it is installed on. Or Full Retail, which is legally transferrable from one computer to another.
[19:10:52] <Hoiriv> Are the rules any different for a copy of XP you get from best buy?
[19:11:03] <scratchme> quux, so at what point is the computer no longer the same computer?
[19:11:11] <jetx> zomg the o2k7 has the keramik slider
[19:11:16] <quux> Hoiriv: the rules are what I just said.
[19:11:18] <Cpudan80> Hoiriv: Did you not hear what quux told you
[19:11:19] <DhunEideann> scratchme: when you change hardware.
[19:11:20] <Cpudan80> ?
[19:11:24] <Hoiriv> Or can you only install it once and have it be forever linked with that machine?
[19:11:25] <scratchme> If you change any hardware?
[19:11:35] <quux> scratchme: yeah yeah. I know.
[19:11:36] <DhunEideann> scratchme: yes, that is what I said.
[19:11:43] <Cpudan80> Hoiriv: If you buy a copy from the store - you can uninstall it and put it on another machine at any time
[19:11:57] <Cpudan80> If you buy OEM - it is stuck on that machine
[19:12:00] <Cpudan80> Forever
[19:12:05] <scratchme> So if your computer is missing a floppy, and you add one, it's a different computer making your OEM license invalid?
[19:12:06] TSCDan [n=Dan@cpe-72-226-227-240.rochester.res.rr.com] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[19:12:23] <DhunEideann> scratchme: officially yes.
[19:12:24] <quux> scratchme: are you *trying* to make this discussion more difficult?
[19:12:32] <Cpudan80> yeah really
[19:12:33] <quux> Actually, officially no
[19:12:33] <scratchme> quux, nothing gets by you.
[19:12:43] <_MattB> it used to be at least the mobo and hd, not sure if that is still valid though
[19:12:53] <DhunEideann> quux: it says it will be void if any hardware is changed in the eula
[19:13:09] <quux> DhunEideann: link?
[19:13:09] <Cpudan80> XP uses a point system to see if you need to reactivate
[19:13:11] <scratchme> So, what's hardware?  Is the original keyboard part of the hardware?
[19:13:21] <Cpudan80> If you keep the vid card the same - you will never have to reactivate
[19:13:28] <jetx> scenario: if i buy a computer, and it has an os on it, and if the computer breaks, i'm going to put the os on my replacement. however, i won't be running >1 copy of the os. am i being a pirate?
[19:13:29] <Cpudan80> ehh - the video and the NIC
[19:13:31] <quux> Because I do not recall *any* MS EULA that says that. A hardware agreement might ...
[19:13:32] Cbro [n=chatzill@CPE-203-51-189-161.vic.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##windows
[19:13:36] <Cpudan80> They get teh most points by XP
[19:13:59] <Cbro> Does "Active Directory" come installed with XP?
[19:14:05] <jetx> hah
[19:14:06] <DhunEideann> quux: i am sure i read that..
[19:14:07] <Cpudan80> Cbro: No
[19:14:09] <DhunEideann> give me 2mins
[19:14:14] <quux> Cbro: the client bits are (in XP pro)
[19:14:18] <Cpudan80> Cbro: You can download an admin-pack for it if you want
[19:14:19] <jetx> what Cpudan80 said
[19:14:38] <Cpudan80> Cbro: You cannot make a Win XP machine your AD Domain Controller
[19:14:49] <jetx> xp isn't a server
[19:14:52] <Cbro> Cpudan80: so is it possible to get AD installed on XP... just to muck around with it?
[19:14:58] <jetx> you need 2000 or 2003
[19:14:58] <Cbro> ok
[19:15:02] <Cpudan80> Cbro: No....
[19:15:04] <Cbro> damn!
[19:15:06] <Cbro> ok
[19:15:09] <JonathanD> jetx: 2000 SERVER or 2003
[19:15:11] <scratchme> So, if you plug in a USB key, is that considered a hardware change?
[19:15:13] <Cpudan80> AD is for servers
[19:15:14] <jetx> right
[19:15:22] <Cbro> Yep ok
[19:15:22] <jetx> i took that to be obvious
[19:15:25] <JonathanD> scratchme: of course it is :P
[19:15:26] <Cpudan80> scratchme: oh good greif
[19:15:29] <Cpudan80> grief*
[19:15:30] <Cbro> its just that I wanna install SSL Explorer
[19:15:30] <DhunEideann> quux: you are right, it does not say that. I wil lhave read an OEM one maybe..
[19:15:32] <jetx> Cbro: you can get an eval of 2003 server
[19:15:33] <Cbro> and it looks into AD
[19:15:44] <Cbro> I dont have a spare machine at the moment
[19:15:44] <JonathanD> use samba, or an eval.
[19:16:02] <DhunEideann> sorry guys..
[19:16:03] <Cbro> I might actually be able to get my hands on a 2003 server copy
[19:16:13] <scratchme> What if you lose a screw taking the case apart, and use a new one?
[19:16:15] <Cbro> another thing
[19:16:18] <scratchme> Is that a hardware change too?
[19:16:29] <JonathanD> Cbro: use vmware, and smaba or eval.
[19:16:30] <Cbro> what is VNC?
[19:16:33] <JonathanD> scratchme: yes.
[19:16:36] <quux> DhunEideann: the OEM ones are fuzzy. They try to define 'major hardware change' but the legal terms are kinda out there, and it falls back to the actual technical enforcement mechanism
[19:17:02] <scratchme> What about the power cord that plugs into the psu?  If it becomes damaged, and you replace it, is that a hardware change?
[19:17:03] <Cbro> I keep hearing VNC and remote terminals etc
[19:17:06] <Cbro> never get it
[19:17:07] <JonathanD> scratchme: new screws in the case require reactivation ;)
[19:17:10] <JonathanD> kidding, of course.
[19:17:32] <DhunEideann> quux: the only one i have read most of is a 95 one, so things will have changed. I am pretty sure that was said in class though. Oh well.
[19:17:57] <scratchme> DhunEideann: said in a class or said in the actual agreement are 2 different things.
[19:17:59] <Cpudan80> VNC = Remote Desktop
[19:18:10] <JonathanD> Cbro: ultravnc.sourceforge.net
[19:18:18] <quux> the technical enforcement is more or less as follows: windows queries all components for their id's (unique ids if it can get them), then makes a hash of all this data
[19:18:23] <DhunEideann> scratchme: indeed they are.
[19:18:25] <scratchme> Except for file transfers, and connect back servers, VNC < Remote Desktop
[19:18:29] <Cpudan80> Cbro: You really want a Virtual machine
[19:18:50] <Cpudan80> Google: Microsoft Virtual Machine
[19:19:02] <quux> if the hash changes significantly (generally that means three changed components, not three *Added* ones), then it *might* be a new computer, and you have to call MS
[19:19:08] <Cbro> Cpudan80: Yeah I got VMWare workstation
[19:19:17] <Cpudan80> err Microsoft Virtual PC
[19:19:25] <DhunEideann> quux: ah cool.
[19:19:26] <Cpudan80> Cbro: You need the server one to run the OS
[19:19:30] <scratchme> quux: I wrote a hardware change detection system.  Personally I think mine was easier on the customer.
[19:19:54] <scratchme> Mine allowed different hardware to use my software, until old hardware was again used.
[19:20:31] <scratchme> I also allowed volume licensing, so you could have upto x licenses using the same hardware, and it properly detected upgrades, with any errors siding with customer convenience.
[19:20:36] <quux> scratchme, the point, after all the wrangling is done, is that this is a hard problem, and the lines well never have bright, clear, technically enforceable down to the last iota definitions
[19:21:00] Justin_ [n=Justin@254.121.55.206.guam.net] has joined ##windows
[19:21:13] <quux> there will always be wiggle room, always be a place where a human judgement call is needed
[19:21:19] <scratchme> I also wrote this back in 2000 or earlier.
[19:21:34] h0bbel [n=h0bbel@gallery/h0bbel] is now known as h0bbel|zZz
[19:21:54] <quux> scratchme: could your mechanism have scaled up to literally a billion different use cases? Because that's what MS has to do ..
[19:22:05] <scratchme> quux, most likely.
[19:22:08] <scratchme> ;)
[19:22:38] <quux> really realy? Even with 300 million of those users trying to crack it?
[19:22:43] <scratchme> I also implemented customer self service by allowing customers to reset the list of PCs they used, to allow them to go back to old computers, upto x times which we had at 5 times by default.
[19:22:52] <quux> and a horde of stockholders breathing down your neck?
[19:22:57] <scratchme> You can't ever get rid of the crackers.
[19:23:10] <scratchme> They'll print your unprintable money before it hits the streets.
[19:23:28] <quux> no, but those stockholders will expect you to work hard to minimize the number of crackers
[19:23:36] User98283 [i=Guest982@80-195-218-31.cable.ubr01.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined ##windows
[19:23:41] <quux> as will the various world legal systems
[19:23:43] Hoiri1 [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-95122cfd7dd64afb] has joined ##windows
[19:23:47] <Cbro> Can I get a 2003 server prebuilt VM ?
[19:23:55] <scratchme> My only point was my software was more convenient, yet, allowed a deterrent to inadvertant (or purposeful) license violations.
[19:24:01] Mapper [n=Mapper@bas1-ottawa23-1177798760.dsl.bell.ca] has joined ##windows
[19:24:07] <scratchme> It also opened right up to the order page to clear up the issue.
[19:24:20] <Cpudan80> Cbro: No -- all you do is setup the VM server - and pop in the disks
[19:24:27] <Cpudan80> Cbro: Use Microsoft Virtual PC
[19:24:32] <Cpudan80> It walks you through it
[19:24:42] <JonathanD> blah
[19:24:45] <Cbro> ok kool
[19:24:49] <JonathanD> or use vmware server :P
[19:24:53] <Cpudan80> Its gonna be dog slow
[19:25:00] <quux> sure, and I see your point. I just hope you see mine. Calling this an easy and scalably solvable issue is, imho, naive
[19:25:00] <JonathanD> what will?
[19:25:01] <Cbro> so I will have to go through the install
[19:25:03] <scratchme> ;)  Anti-theft is not meant to be the end all.  You make an anti-theft system, and it helps honest people stay honest.
[19:25:05] cara [i=cara@adsl-70-240-211-30.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net] has joined ##windows
[19:25:06] <Cpudan80> but - it will work -
[19:25:06] <Hoiri1> Can someone PM me the last 5 minutes that I missed?
[19:25:20] <Cpudan80> Cbro: Yes
[19:25:28] <Cpudan80> JonathanD: Virtual PC
[19:25:37] Cpudan80 [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/cpudan80] has quit IRC: "Chatzilla 0.9.75 [Firefox 2.0/2006101023]"
[19:25:40] <scratchme> My point is just that MS could be doing more to make life easier for people who actually pay, and use it normally.
[19:25:41] <JonathanD> Cpudan80: shouldn't be "dog slwo" at least vmware is not.
[19:26:08] <DhunEideann> VirtualPC is pretty fast i can varify.
[19:26:11] <quux> scratchme: well then, you have a path to riches here. Make your system, and sell it to MS
[19:26:28] <Hoiri1> I was asking about license issues, in particular whether XP full retail requires a phone call to M$ to fix activation
[19:26:40] <quux> Just be ready to explain its strengths and weaknesses in great, great detail
[19:26:48] jacko911 [n=none@82.195.111.248] has quit IRC: No route to host
[19:27:07] <scratchme> quux, I'm not sure it works that way.  Their installer leaves miles of room to improve, all of my complaints against which have been conquered by numerous products.
[19:27:38] <scratchme> Many of those installers have been in business a long time.
[19:27:59] Shadow_mil2 [n=chuck@SilentFlame/Member/pdpc.active.Shadow-mil] is now known as Shadow_mil
[19:28:24] <quux> Again, remember all the constraints. Like anonymity. And again, remember the vast scaling issue. And the huge number of hardware and net connectivity situations you have to run under
[19:28:39] <scratchme> MSI was a poor push of "great" technology.
[19:28:57] <JonathanD> the non-admin flaws/etc, scratchme?
[19:28:59] <scratchme> I happen to know someone who makes an MSI compatible installer that takes way less overhead than the default way.
[19:29:17] <scratchme> Even though without MSI it's even smaller still.
[19:29:50] <scratchme> Personally, while I see some virtue in the ideas MSI installer was supposed to fix, I think it was too poorly implemented to be released.
[19:30:32] <scratchme> I also can't figure out why installers have a need to unpack tons of files to install anyway.
[19:30:36] <quux> and so the discussions morphs
[19:31:04] <scratchme> Well, just that I think a few of their implementations need work I guess ;)
[19:31:23] <quux> Well, that's simple. Dependencies. Why reinvent every wheel?
[19:31:40] <scratchme> Dependencies?
[19:31:54] <scratchme> Why do you have to unpack your installer into a temp folder so you can check dependencies?
[19:32:23] <scratchme> Like MS Offices, Visual Studio, etc.  Their installers are a bit unwieldy.
[19:32:38] <quux> well, another (lamentable) thing is that most projects devote far too little time on install issues
[19:32:48] <scratchme> I agree.
[19:32:51] Hoiri1 [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-95122cfd7dd64afb] has left ##windows
[19:32:51] <quux> the coder is happy when it works on *his* machine
[19:33:19] <scratchme> That seems to be a common problem with a lot of systems.
[19:33:24] <quux> Even QA is susceptible to that disease
[19:33:55] <scratchme> Personally I think QA should lose their job if they don't test all their software using build tests, and automated testing tools.
[19:33:56] <quux> they groan 'oh god please don't make us test in 7309658 different environments!'
[19:34:00] <JonathanD> quux: which is wonderful, when *his* machine is running as admin ;)
[19:34:09] <quux> JonathanD: agreed
[19:34:21] <quux> Here's something I discovered as part of quuxutils
[19:34:35] <JonathanD> quux: I had issues with my printing software that amounted to "I can't test it on that"
[19:34:45] <JonathanD> cause I ain't rich :P
[19:34:47] <quux> even the old win95 and NT logo certification programs required programs to work as nonadmin users
[19:34:57] <scratchme> JonathanD: hahaha
[19:35:02] <JonathanD> so what happened?
[19:35:03] <jetx> anybody notice that the ie7 icon is actually retro?
[19:35:06] Hoiri1 [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-89d66e86ff1a0db6] has joined ##windows
[19:35:08] GNAM [n=GNAM@host79-241.pool80183.interbusiness.it] has joined ##windows
[19:35:14] <JonathanD> scratchme: yes, oodles of fun.
[19:35:19] <GNAM> Microsoft and Novell RULEZZ
[19:35:19] <jetx> ie 3 or 4, iirc
[19:35:20] <GNAM> ;)
[19:35:23] <JonathanD> scratchme: 40K downloads and counting!
[19:35:23] <quux> what happened is simple. lots and lots of software vendors did not go through log cert process
[19:35:32] <JonathanD> quux: that explains it :P
[19:35:32] <scratchme> JonathanD: Downloads of what?
[19:35:37] <JonathanD> like say, 97%
[19:35:40] <quux> s/log/logo
[19:35:42] <JonathanD> scratchme: teh printing software.
[19:35:46] <scratchme> Oh.
[19:35:47] <scratchme> heh.
[19:36:03] <JonathanD> my mark on the world :P
[19:36:10] <scratchme> Personally, I think they should push their certification testing more.
[19:36:23] <quux> scratchme, I would say almost all QA teams have BVTs and at least automated smoke tests
[19:36:34] <scratchme> Like give free MS Partner status to anyone with 2 decent certified products.
[19:36:43] Mapper [n=Mapper@bas1-ottawa23-1177798760.dsl.bell.ca] has quit IRC: Excess Flood
[19:36:53] <quux> but gain, only in their carefully setup and regularized build labs. Not in 32987486454 different customer scenarios
[19:36:53] <scratchme> People would be certified partner like crazy if they had that.
[19:37:12] <JonathanD> scratchme: bad idea.
[19:37:30] <JonathanD> Company A has 28 products on the world, 26 of which are crap.
[19:37:30] <scratchme> quux, you know computers run on that white smoke right?
[19:37:42] <JonathanD> Company B has 1 product on the market, and it's excellent.
[19:37:46] <JonathanD> Who gets rewarded? :P
[19:37:55] <quux> Well, what I know for sure is that is smoke gets out, things quit working
[19:38:09] <JonathanD> lol
[19:38:13] <JonathanD> and often before it gets out
[19:38:14] <scratchme> JonathanD: Maybe make another requirement is that general distribution for purchase of partner products all products for use on MS platforms must be certified.
[19:38:14] <JonathanD> :P
[19:38:36] <scratchme> quux: I guess I'm not as original as at first it seemed.
[19:38:45] <quux> But. Being the logically hardheaded, scientific guy that I am, I have not correlated this effect to an actual cause ...
[19:39:28] <quux> :P (!!)
[19:39:28] <scratchme> JonathanD: You ever use zfs/
[19:39:29] <scratchme> ?
[19:39:52] Hoiriv [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-5495d82eb4ba5d9a] has quit IRC: Nick collision from services.
[19:40:13] <JonathanD> Anyway, my solution was a stub program on the "customers" computer that sent stuff to his printing API over the network (and back to mine)
[19:40:33] <scratchme> If anyone has a lead on the cheapest 100Mbit or gigabit adapter that is a bootable iSCSI device, lemme know.
[19:41:18] <JonathanD> scratchme: theres a bootable windows solution using pxe to load the initiator before windows.
[19:41:34] <scratchme> If I have to buy software, that eats into the "cheapest" part of my question.
[19:41:45] <JonathanD> second, no nics out there now are "iscsi bootable" you need an iscsi HBA.
[19:41:58] <scratchme> Okay, then the cheapest bootable iSCSI HBA.
[19:43:02] <scratchme> I was thinking I'd like to get 2 machines up with zfs, and test network booting a VMWare server against an iSCSI LUN.
[19:43:16] nalioth [i=nalioth@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.nalioth] has joined ##windows
[19:43:19] <quux> pxe need have no cost ..
[19:43:20] <scratchme> I think that'd be fun.
[19:43:27] Hoiri1 [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-89d66e86ff1a0db6] has quit IRC: Client Quit
[19:43:28] <JonathanD> ehh, about $800, scratchme
[19:43:31] unix_infidel [n=blue@unaffiliated/unixinfidel/x-8383745] has joined ##windows
[19:43:39] <JonathanD> quux: the bootable initiator software is not free.
[19:43:44] <scratchme> quux, a pxe that boots an iSCSI initiator?
[19:44:00] <quux> ah, that I dunno
[19:44:21] <JonathanD> there is yet no open source solutoin for windows, that I know of.
[19:44:25] MyNameIsNed [i=ned@12-218-154-115.client.mchsi.com] has joined ##windows
[19:44:30] <JonathanD> linux, there is a way to make it work.
[19:44:41] <JonathanD> so scratchme you could potentially setup on linux.
[19:44:56] <JonathanD> s/ there is/I think there is/
[19:44:56] <scratchme> JonathanD: setup what on Linux?
[19:45:02] <JonathanD> vmware server
[19:45:14] <scratchme> I was planning to setup VMWare Server on Linux in my test.
[19:45:36] Hoiriv [i=Joe@gateway/tor/x-5a9ddd6009a2a489] has joined ##windows