11:13:11 <@nightglider> http://imgur.com/gallery/5krlg <--I'm going to need something big to restore my faith in humanity, today.
11:17:30 < zubrils> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16330790 - how about hugmuggers
11:21:22 <@nightglider> zubrils: I said RESTORE you bastard...
11:22:02 < zubrils> well at least they don't just beat ppl up and rob them
11:22:05 < zubrils> that's a progress of a kind
11:22:40 <@nightglider> Shitbag hiding in hugs is still shitbag.
11:27:57 < zubrils> u have been exploited, manipulated etc since the they u were born
11:28:01 < zubrils> by the system itself
11:28:07 < zubrils> *the day
11:28:15 < zubrils> u have so hostile attitude just when it's personal
11:28:23 < zubrils> like a person actually take the money out of ur wallet
11:28:33 < zubrils> but in reality he's least of actual problems
11:29:54 <@nightglider> You seem to assume I enjoy the govt theft.
11:30:07 <@nightglider> They're shitbags, too.
11:30:07 < zubrils> I don't think that u understand
11:30:23 < zubrils> the entire purpose of business and markets
11:30:29 < zubrils> is to manipulate and exploit u
11:30:33 < zubrils> get as much out of u as they can
11:30:38 < zubrils> preferably milk u dry
11:30:44 < zubrils> that's the whole point
11:30:50 <@nightglider> zubrils: No shit. Profit as a business model. Who'd have thunk it?
11:32:10 < zubrils> that's even worse because markets control food and water distribution
11:32:13 < zubrils> and energy resources
11:32:44 < zubrils> and u r essential a slave but instead of someone owning u
11:32:46 < zubrils> they just rent u
11:32:57 < zubrils> *essentially
11:33:05 <@nightglider> Are you a hippie?
11:33:29 < zubrils> I don't get the question
11:33:59 <@nightglider> I feel you're a sentence or two away from saying, "It's the man trying to keep you down...man!"
11:34:32 < zubrils> I'm a realist - that's all :)
11:34:59 <@ZoOM> wheres the weed at
11:35:01 <@ZoOM> xD
11:35:32 <@nightglider> zubrils: Either we have corporations trying to sell us all this cool shit, or we don't have the cool shit.
11:35:50 < zubrils> that's false
11:36:04 <@nightglider> For as long as someone has something you want, they're going to manipulate you into buying it.
11:37:00 < zubrils> human ability for innovation is not dependent on market competition
11:37:29 < zubrils> or supply and demand
11:37:43 < zubrils> I think u mix up human necessities for survival
11:37:45 <@nightglider> We're not even talking about competition.
11:37:53 < zubrils> with modern world understanding of comfort and happiness
11:38:20 <@nightglider> You brought up the human necessities for survival with the food/water distribution comment. It just happens to work
well for my side of the debate.
11:38:52 <@nightglider> You seem to be complaining about being manipulated into buying shit.
11:39:02 <@nightglider> As if companies and the media are the only ones doing it.
11:39:05 < zubrils> complaining?
11:39:20 <@nightglider> For as long as people have had things to sell, they've been manipulating people into buying it.
11:39:22 < zubrils> I just described how the system works
11:39:26 < zubrils> and if u want to survive in the system
11:39:31 < zubrils> it demands u to continue the cicle
11:39:38 <@ZoOM> cycle*
11:39:48 < zubrils> the point I was trying to make is that there's no point in being mad at 3 guys who rob a rnd person
11:40:00 < zubrils> unless u want to be mad at everything all the time
11:40:04 < zubrils> otherwise u r a hypocrite
11:40:09 <@ZoOM> im mad at u zubrils
11:40:16 < zubrils> *cycle, ineed
11:40:21 <@ZoOM> indeed*
11:40:29 < zubrils> *indeed, indeed
11:40:33 <@ZoOM> ^^
11:40:49 <@nightglider> zubrils: Yes there is. The corporations you buy shit from are at least giving you something in return that you've
already accepted.
11:41:03 <@nightglider> zubrils: The people stealing from others is just stealing.
11:41:10 < zubrils> ur objections seems to only be that they don't play by the rules
11:41:15 < zubrils> so it's fun to fuck ppl as long as it's legal
11:41:21 < zubrils> is that what u r saying?
11:41:45 <@ZoOM> how can it be fun if its legal?
11:41:45 <@nightglider> No, I'm saying that whenyou deal with corporations, you understand there's a price to pay for the goods you want.
11:41:48 <@ZoOM> :/
11:41:57 <@nightglider> ZoOM: He's talking about business.
11:42:10 < zubrils> u don't get it - u have no choice but to seek those goods
11:42:13 < zubrils> unless u want to die
11:42:56 <@nightglider> zubrils: Are we getting back into the human necessities debate, again? Because you already tried to steer away from
it.
11:43:03 < zubrils> there r 7 billion ppl on this planet - not everyone has the opportunity to buld a self-sustainable farm
11:43:12 <@nightglider> Agreed.
11:43:36 <@nightglider> But again, we're getting into the human necessities side of the debate. May sure you want to go there before you
start this.
11:43:40 < zubrils> so societies r by definition slaves to ppl who control those supplies
11:43:52 <@nightglider> Slaves don't get paid.
11:44:06 < zubrils> u have no choice either way :)
11:44:16 < zubrils> all u can do is to pick what u want to do
11:44:19 < zubrils> that doesn't change anything
11:44:20 <@nightglider> Now while some of these farmers don't get paid, and that's shitty, many do.
11:44:39 <@nightglider> So you're complaining that you have the opportunity to get paid for your time and effort?
11:45:00 < zubrils> again - what's up with "complaining"?
11:46:07 <@nightglider> zubrils: Well I don't see any reason to be celebrating in this discussion.
11:46:23 < zubrils> for example if I would say that we live in a chaotic universe ruled by chance and probability filled with random events
in terms of opportunities in human day to day life
11:46:31 < zubrils> I'm not complaining - I'm describing the way it is
11:47:23 < zubrils> I could be rich and happy or a miserable bum
11:47:30 < zubrils> it wouldn't change anything
11:48:25 <@nightglider> So what was the point of this convo?
11:49:27 < zubrils> that ppl should realize how it actually works in reality
11:49:39 < zubrils> and from that point on we can only start to think about some change
11:49:40 < zubrils> or progress
11:49:58 <@nightglider> What's the point of realizing it if, as you keep pointing out, they can't change it?
11:50:05 <@nightglider> heh
11:50:08 < zubrils> did I say that?
11:50:19 <@nightglider> 11:47:23 < zubrils> I could be rich and happy or a miserable bum
11:50:24 <@nightglider> 11:47:30 < zubrils> it wouldn't change anything
11:50:27 < zubrils> I'm not aware of any law of nature that suggests that the system itself has to work that way
11:50:28 <@nightglider> Yes, yes you did.
11:50:29 < zubrils> we made it up
11:50:38 < zubrils> u didn't get it
11:50:46 < zubrils> what I meant is that my personal position and feelings about life
11:50:52 < zubrils> has nothing to do with what reality actually is
11:51:36 <@nightglider> zubrils: Come up with a different reality that can function and we'll see if we can convince people to go with it.
11:52:56 < zubrils> there r progressive ideas that seem quite realistic to me
11:53:00 < zubrils> and make sense in the long run
11:53:20 <@nightglider> Such as?
11:53:25 < zubrils> the venus project
11:53:46 <@nightglider> Which is?
11:54:10 < zubrils> but as I said to realize anything like that ppl actually have to want change
11:54:49 < zubrils> http://www.thevenusproject.com/
11:55:35 < zubrils> the idea is to build an infrastructure planet wide with the idea that we live on a planet with limited resources
11:56:28 < zubrils> self sustainable homes etc
11:56:53 <@nightglider> The venus project is doomed to failed. It is doomed to fail for a reason that, unfortunately, is undebatable.
11:57:03 <@nightglider> "The Venus Project advocates an alternative vision for a sustainable new world civilization unlike any socio-economic system that has gone before. It calls for a straightforward redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable."
11:57:09 <@nightglider> Did that get cut off?
11:57:59 <@nightglider> I mostly need the last part to be there beofree I say what I have to say.
11:58:05 <@nightglider> *before
11:58:52 <@nightglider> zubrils: ?
11:59:17 < zubrils> the quote was full imo
11:59:23 <@nightglider> Ok.
11:59:49 <@nightglider> Anyway, the project is doomed to fail for one basic reason: Greed.
12:01:02 <@nightglider> For as long as you have what someone else wants, they are going to figure out a way to take it.
12:01:06 <@nightglider> People are greedy by nature.
12:01:38 < zubrils> greed is just as common (wanting always more than someone else has) as personal sacrifice for greater good
12:01:43 < zubrils> and no
12:01:47 < zubrils> there's not greed in nature
12:01:54 < zubrils> nature only takes what it needs
12:01:57 < zubrils> to sustain itself
12:02:00 <@nightglider> I human nature.
12:02:01 < zubrils> any plant or animal
12:02:07 <@nightglider> The nature of *people* is to be greedy.
12:02:13 < zubrils> oh, human nature
12:02:13 <@nightglider> *In
12:02:37 <@nightglider> My roommate and I have debated this for hours.
12:02:43 < zubrils> men who want to rationalize and justify their faults and fails create a monster they call human nature
12:03:00 <@nightglider> For the same reason we cannot have a perfect system of government.
12:03:23 < zubrils> lets start with better
12:03:30 < zubrils> before we start poking perfect
12:03:31 <@nightglider> zubrils: That's a great zen line. Problem is, greedy people won't care.
12:03:54 <@nightglider> Perfection cannot cannot be attained when settling with better.
12:04:10 < zubrils> in either case
12:04:15 < zubrils> none of that is an argument against trying
12:04:50 <@nightglider> 12:02:43 < zubrils> men who want to rationalize and justify their faults and fails create a monster they call human
nature <--Not all men attempt to justify it. It's actually the good people who explain it, not the ones who perform greedy acts.
12:05:03 <@nightglider> I'm not saying you cna't try.
12:05:21 <@nightglider> And yes, knowing you're goingto fail is certainly an argument against trying.
12:05:55 < zubrils> well since neither one of us can predict the future
12:06:18 < zubrils> there r certain things that have to happen before that
12:06:25 <@nightglider> No, but you can get a pretty damn good idea of it from learning about the past.
12:06:26 < zubrils> which is a huge shift in human thinking
12:06:33 < zubrils> enlightement 2.0 if u will
12:06:37 <@nightglider> heh
12:07:02 <@nightglider> i just don't see it hapenning