13:44 <tm512> Only recently has odamex really become a serious contender
13:44 <AlexMax> then you have eternity:cs which is ladna
13:44 <May1972> zomg another one :D
13:44 <tm512> As for obsidian, I apologize that stuff like a server browser isn't done yet
13:45 <tm512> it is not easy work
13:45 <May1972> No problem
13:45 <May1972> But with the recent creation of eternityCS and the recent odamex update I am not really sure how one port offers superior things to the other
13:45 <AlexMax> May1972: http://www.totaltrash.org/eternity/
13:45 <tm512> it seems like you were able to play either way, so it doesnt matter quite yet :P
13:45 <May1972> All three are pretty much OS based from what I heard
13:46 <nocrao> hey hey eecs is pre-alpha
13:46 <nocrao> not really for public consumption!
13:46 <May1972> But eternity is towards competition and odamex too I think
13:46 <nocrao> altho the excitement is encouraging
13:46 <tm512> nocrao: Yeah, it shows :P
13:46 <nocrao> rofl tm
13:46 <tm512> however
13:46 <AlexMax> May1972: They're three different flavors. None of them are based on recent versions of ZDoom and are thus mostly vanilla-perfect.
13:46 <tm512> the unlagged in it
13:46 <tm512> hnnng
13:46 <tm512> amazing
13:46 <May1972> Yeah three Psuedo-vanilla ports
13:47 <AlexMax> No
13:47 <nocrao> yeah, also you should be a little more careful with how you say things
13:47 <nocrao> beacuse that comment "it shows" could be percieved as something negative
13:47 <May1972> With some things added for competition ?
13:47 <nocrao> esp. when you're hard at work on something yourself
13:47 <AlexMax> Odamex is most like the existing ports, in that it's another zdoom+csdoom derivitive
13:48 <tm512> nocrao: I didn't mean it as 100% positive either. To me, it's a promising project, but I don't really want to play it yet
13:48 <tm512> well
13:48 <May1972> Yeah alexmax
13:48 <AlexMax> aiming for zdoom 1.23b33 compatibility while being demo-playback perfect.
13:48 <tm512> i guess there's this "lockstep" enabled by default
13:48 <nocrao> we dont really want people playing it yet so that works out
13:48 <nocrao> it's not lockstep, it's courtesy
13:48 <AlexMax> Then you have obsidian, which is based on chocolate doom
13:48 <AlexMax> and is vanilla by definition
13:48 <nocrao> that always confused me
13:49 <nocrao> how is chocolate doom vanilla
13:49 <nocrao> someone really dropped the ball on that
13:49 <May1972> Oda probably caters to eliminate the disavantages of ST and ZD - Feels more vanilla and has consistent SSG which current non beta ST versions lack, and does not have the stupid blanks in ZD and shot delay
13:49 <May1972> Plus probably less harsh administration
13:49 <tm512> not a "probably"
13:49 <May1972> :D
13:49 <AlexMax> Then you have eternity:cs which is it's own thing. Eternity offers vanilla perfection while offering much of the flexibility of ZDoom...just not with ZDoom features it has its own.
13:50 <tm512> It's a lot more decentralized with odamex
13:50 <tm512> the master server is public
13:50 <tm512> no banlist
13:50 <tm512> there's not even code that would allow though
13:50 <tm512> server admins host what they want
13:50 <tm512> how they want
13:50 <tm512> and play with who they want :P
13:50 <May1972> Yeah and more cooperation with leagues if by chance ZDDL/IDL will move to it, unlike in ZD where IDL is unsupported by administration
13:50 <AlexMax> EE:CS will probably never feel like zdoom ports though when it comes to jumping
13:50 <AlexMax> and rocket physics
13:51 <nocrao> let's not say never! :)
13:51 <nocrao> but yeah it's wonky atm
13:51 <May1972> Oda ?
13:51 <AlexMax> i thought eternity has its own rocket physics
13:51 <AlexMax> and jumping physics
13:51 <nocrao> oda IS zdoom
13:51 <nocrao> so it can feel exactly like zd physics wise
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13:51 <AlexMax> Oda is forked from zdoom before randy started snorting coke
13:51 <nocrao> rofl
13:52 <AlexMax> and started breaking backwards compatibility
13:52 <tm512> Odamex is like, the top zdoom 1.x derivative
13:52 <nocrao> heit is a character
13:52 <tm512> zdoom + vanilla compatibility
13:52 <May1972> Yeah Alexmax but will the different things between Odamex,EternityCS and obsidian create different playerbases or something? because I don't think they are really totally different form eachother to create different playerbases etc
13:52 <AlexMax> Some zdoom 1.23b33 features are being ported over but they coexist with existing vanilla-compatible stuff
13:52 <tm512> AlexMax: I thought it was strictly 1.22.
13:53 <AlexMax> May1972: I really doubt it. Some people might have their preferred port but I doubt you're going to see zdaemon vs skulltag type source port warriors
13:53 <May1972> Yeah
13:53 <nocrao> what will hopefully happen may is that all of these open ports (i hope to include ST soon) will be slave to the greater competitive community
13:53 <AlexMax> the people working on the open source ports all know each other and are generally friendly
13:53 <AlexMax> and all of them are vanilla perfect
13:53 <AlexMax> so there's no reason not to have all three installed
13:53 <nocrao> except macn who hates me
13:53 <tm512> I am already expecting nobody to play obsidian
13:53 <nocrao> :)
13:53 <May1972> But are people going to be spread around the three ports?
13:54 <May1972> Because it's not what we really need in a not so big community
13:54 <nocrao> there are a lot of ports right now people just don't play
13:54 <HumanBones> people will go where the competition is
13:54 <AlexMax> nocrao: lmao I really highly doubt manc hates you. Besides, so what if he did, what does it even matter.
13:54 <tm512> And, once obsidian gets stablized, if there still is not enough interest in it to make me continue, I will cease working on it
13:54 <nocrao> i was joking but i tend to agree with the latter statement
13:55 <AlexMax> nocrao: If Kilgore wasn't a lunatic I'd still probably be playing it
13:55 <May1972> The totally 1995 feeling of obsidian albeit making gameplay a little different is a little cool
13:55 <May1972> Resolution and vanilla setup menu and chat etc
13:55 <AlexMax> I don't really want serious business competition playing against the same 30 people.
13:55 <tm512> Nobody has called me out yet on obsidian not having momentum when you get damaged
13:55 <AlexMax> I like to just play with whatever random players happen to be on a server.
13:56 <AlexMax> and to feel like I can quit playing without me killing the server.
13:56 <May1972> Also TM you should see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM80NWv2zik when me and Proton tested this on his serv
13:56 <nocrao> idk alex i liked playing public zd for a long time
13:56 <tm512> im watching that right now
13:56 <May1972> There were times where me and him too saw blood puffs on their screens
13:56 <May1972> but did not recieve damage
13:56 <nocrao> but the competitive environment is addictive
13:56 <tm512> May1972: that is known about
13:56 <AlexMax> nocrao: I haven't played anything like public zd in years
13:56 <May1972> I c
13:56 <nocrao> and tbh it's nice to know where you stand up against the best players
13:56 <AlexMax> Probably the closest I've come was playing duel32 in skulltag
13:56 <tm512> there's not a whole ton I can do about it either really
13:56 <nocrao> rather than just raping robertk over and over again
13:57 <HumanBones> lol
13:57 <AlexMax> which was neat
13:57 <HumanBones> well the public players pretty much became the best competition
13:57 <nocrao> you're a weird case of someone that works on doom but doesn't play it really
13:57 <dr_sean> I think that's pretty common actually
13:58 <nocrao> i get the sense that a lot of people who take up coding doom quit playing it much
13:58 <AlexMax> I don't want to actually feel like anyone on a team depends on me heh
13:58 <tm512> nocrao: I am proof against that
13:58 <nocrao> dr_sean yeah it is among people who code it
13:58 <May1972> So yeah AlexMax , regarding the competition thing I think odamex will have the highest chance since it has Ralphis and a few IDL players playing/supporting it
13:58 <May1972> I even talked with JKist and he says he might move ZDDL to oda but not sure
13:58 <nocrao> but guys who run communitues like altdeath are usually more active players
13:58 <tm512> May1972: Also, if you were playing on 11.07c, states (such as pain) are sent out by your client to the other players
13:58 <tm512> packet loss can affect this
13:59 <AlexMax> May1972: I think that if eecs ever actually gets to 1.0 it might be a strong contender.
13:59 <May1972> Yeah
13:59 <tm512> so sometimes pain happens, but the state change doesnt get sent
13:59 <May1972> Hmm
13:59 <AlexMax> but that's a big _IF_
13:59 <AlexMax> because we all know ladna
13:59 <May1972> Yeah he is an IDL player too
13:59 <tm512> this is fixed for 11.09a or whatever the next release is
13:59 <nocrao> i would say that i probably know him best
13:59 <nocrao> and i do'nt even see the if
13:59 <May1972> now it's the competition on getting competition to your port
13:59 <May1972> :>
13:59 <AlexMax> nocrao: I'll believe it when i see people playing it.
13:59 <nocrao> he's made a ridiculous amount of progress in 8 months
13:59 <AlexMax> by the way i've started submitting FR's
13:59 <nocrao> and he's still full into it
14:00 <nocrao> wooo
14:00 <AlexMax> my first one is a lava switch option
14:00 <nocrao> the more the merrier
14:00 <HumanBones> he has made an insane amount of progress
14:00 <HumanBones> it's pretty neat
14:00 <AlexMax> basically, if eecs detects you're playing d2m1
14:00 <AlexMax> it replaces the map with jkists's lava switch map
14:00 <tm512> that would suck
14:00 <nocrao> that is less helpful than i'd hoped for
14:00 <nocrao> but i'll take it
14:00 <AlexMax> nocrao: i'm joking
14:01 <nocrao> i dig config hud tho
14:01 <AlexMax> it's a custom hud FR
14:01 <nocrao> tbh if kist were here
14:01 <nocrao> he'd probably add that right now
14:01 <AlexMax> also nocrao
14:01 <AlexMax> i have bad memories of fucking with zdstack
14:02 <AlexMax> the docs weren't kept up to date at all
14:02 <nocrao> rofl yeah that was a mess
14:02 <AlexMax> like
14:02 <AlexMax> odamex may not have the nicest internals
14:02 <AlexMax> but it has the support around it
14:02 <nocrao> then again when u make a piece of software for a game that bans you, trolls you and slanders you...
14:02 <AlexMax> manc running the site, Ralphis keeping up with docs and waving the flag and arranging games
14:02 <nocrao> ceasing the work on that software doesn't seem so ludacris
14:02 <tm512> well, to be fair, it sounds like ZDStack wasnt really made for other people
14:03 <AlexMax> multiple developers working on it
14:03 <May1972> Well the competition between the three ports imo is a little deterring imo because it can divide the concentration having both ports without a big amount of competition concentrated into it
14:03 <nocrao> that is one of the things i've been talking about a lot
14:03 <HumanBones> ee has that as well
14:03 <GhostlyDeath> What about ReMooD!?
14:03 <AlexMax> also, Ralphis knows how to court players
14:03 <nocrao> hold on
14:04 <nocrao> ralph knows how to court players into doing things that are beneficial for them
14:04 <AlexMax> themselves?
14:04 <nocrao> but over 5 years he's done a very mediocre job courting players to oda
14:04 <nocrao> i do'nt attribute the blame to him
14:04 <AlexMax> nocrao: I say he did the best he could given the state of it in the past
14:04 <nocrao> but i'd say he's at par in the courting players catergory
14:05 <nocrao> additionally he had a great deal of help starting idl
14:05 <nocrao> and keeping it running
14:05 <nocrao> and growing
14:05 <AlexMax> Of course
14:05 <nocrao> and bones is right eecs has some framework as well
14:05 <nocrao> certainly not the extent of odamex
14:05 <tm512> May1972: to be honest, that isnt that big of a worry
14:05 <AlexMax> I just...you know I just don't want to turn this into odamex vs eecs
14:05 <nocrao> i really do'nt see it that way either
14:05 <AlexMax> i mean, there are very real reasons people don't fuck with skulltag
14:05 <AlexMax> and zdaemon
14:05 <May1972> EternityCS might be a nice contender to Oda but considering ZDDL and maybe even IDL might move into odamex in the future I think the competitive concentration will be in Oda instead
14:05 <HumanBones> I see two open source ports as a very positive thing imo
14:06 <tm512> i mean there's three ports now but one of those ports gets like, 75% of the community
14:06 <nocrao> i've helped people test oda, i like ralph and dr_sean and hope they are successful
14:06 <tm512> I think people will play what they like
14:06 <nocrao> May1972: i can tell you there is very little chance of zddl being on oda
14:06 <dr_sean> Any help you can throw our way is appreciated nocrao
14:06 <nocrao> :)
14:06 <May1972> nocrao I discussed with Jefferson
14:06 <nocrao> tt hosted nitro iirc
14:06 <May1972> and he was actually considering it
14:07 <nocrao> and would continue to do that as far as i'm concerned
14:07 <manc> that would be al ittle strange
14:07 <manc> woudl it even be called zddl anymore?
14:07 <nocrao> the name change was also discussed
14:07 <manc> and ifi t's not called zddl, then it isn't zddl
14:07 <HumanBones> yeah ladna helped host nitro, but for some reason his servers kept crashing
14:07 <manc> unless the name change happens independently
14:07 <nocrao> but for the purposes of talking about it let's call it zddl
14:07 <May1972> Yeah
14:07 <nocrao> HumanBones yeah idk what that was about
14:07 <nocrao> but i was speaking more toward the willingness
14:07 <manc> not this time!
14:08 <HumanBones> the thought counts though
14:08 <May1972> so nocrao there is some chance of it happening
14:08 <HumanBones> no big deal anyway
14:08 <HumanBones> it was very helpful
14:08 <nocrao> May1972: no
14:08 <nocrao> there isn't
14:08 <May1972> We were discussing about it and he actually pointed out that he doesn't really see a good future for ZDDL in ZDaemon
14:08 <nocrao> i mean i guess i do'nt know how long ago u talked to him
14:08 <May1972> And he wants to find another port
14:08 <May1972> 1 month ago ?
14:09 <nocrao> but there was kind of a weird meeting between kist and the oda team
14:09 <nocrao> and it didn't go well at all
14:09 <nocrao> not that kist is the most social adept guy :)
14:09 <May1972> Hmm what exactly happened ?
14:09 <nocrao> you'd have to talk to the parties present
14:10 <AlexMax> I mean, Ladna was an odamex dev for the longest time
14:10 <May1972> Ok that doesn't matter but what happened in the aftermath, they became rivals or something ?
14:10 <nocrao> May1972: no they just didn't see eye to eye on some things i guess
14:10 <nocrao> i really wasn't there
14:10 <nocrao> so i do'nt know for sure
14:10 <nocrao> AlexMax: yeah he was
14:10 <nocrao> i'm not sure how much he did though
14:11 <nocrao> that was when he was an active player mostly
14:11 <May1972> Well
14:11 <AlexMax> Also ladna is the kind of person who would say "fuck refactoring, let me do it from scratch"
14:11 <May1972> Things such as ?
14:11 <nocrao> May1972: I DONT KNOW
14:11 <nocrao> 14:10 <nocrao> so i do'nt know for sure
14:11 <May1972> Things regarding the establishment of the duel league in oda ?
14:12 <HumanBones> probably things like PWO
14:12 <AlexMax> jkist wants his own special flavor of duel
14:12 <AlexMax> :P
14:12 <May1972> hmm
14:12 <nocrao> and tbh he should be able to have it
14:12 <HumanBones> well it's been successful, let him do it
14:12 <nocrao> *shouldn't
14:13 <nocrao> really having all these vanilla/os/ns/flag crap settings server side makes so much sense
14:13 <nocrao> don't legislate a playing style through coding, let players decide what is most fun
14:13 <AlexMax> i really don't see the logic in him wanting clientside PWO override
14:13 <HumanBones> yes
14:13 <AlexMax> that is....like a client being able to override soulsphere respawn times
14:14 <nocrao> it's really not
14:14 <May1972> Hey HumanBones, what do you think about the IDL moving into the Odamex port, in the near future once it becomes more optimised for serious competition ?
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14:14 <AlexMax> nocrao: No I mean PWO on servers where doom PWO is enforced
14:14 <nocrao> and that kind of conflation is tantamount to switcher calling binds cheating
14:15 <nocrao> kist is saying you shouldn't get to make weapon switching serverside at all
14:15 <HumanBones> hmm that is a big question that I can't really answer right now
14:15 <May1972> Alright
14:15 <tm512> I couldnt disagree more with him on that
14:15 <AlexMax> why not allow the server owners to make that decision
14:15 <HumanBones> I mean
14:15 <nocrao> and i'm not even sure i agree with him
14:15 <nocrao> tm512: ofc you're coding a vanilla port
14:15 <nocrao> AlexMax: beacuse the server isn't playing the game
14:15 <HumanBones> I think it's something we will have to look at when the time comes
14:15 <nocrao> but again
14:15 <nocrao> i'm not even sure i agree with him
14:16 <nocrao> i just do'nt write him off
14:16 <nocrao> because he's one of the most knowledgable and talented duelers doom has
14:16 <AlexMax> i mean what he's essentially lobbying for is for it to be impossible for people who prefer vanilla play to play a vanilla game
14:16 <tm512> nocrao: if the server admin wants to enforce vanilla rules, that is not the client's choice
14:16 <May1972> So things such as available costumizations available for things like PWO and weapon switching are what deters JKist from wanting to establish the Duel league in oda ?
14:16 <nocrao> tm512: that is actually the arguement
14:16 <nocrao> you're espousing a belief of yours
14:16 <nocrao> which is fine
14:16 <nocrao> AlexMax: i agree and that was my point
14:17 <HumanBones> May1972: it isn't just my decision. I could move to the league to X port, but if nobody wants to play it there is really no point in moving it there
14:17 <May1972> True
14:17 <AlexMax> nocrao: I mean, it could be voted on or something
14:17 <May1972> But there is a reason
14:17 <nocrao> i like that idea AlexMax
14:17 <AlexMax> callvote forcepwo true
14:17 <nocrao> or callvote itemrespawn
14:17 <nocrao> or w/e
14:17 <tm512> nocrao: Well, in the very end, it's the client's choice of what server he plays on
14:17 <nocrao> that way the players get to decide
14:17 <May1972> I think part of is because people are accostumized to ZD, but then again odamex does need a little work regarding some missing things which are needed for competitive play
14:17 <nocrao> the current players
14:17 <nocrao> instead of switcher running servers for 50% of zdaemon
14:18 <nocrao> or whatever you wanna use as a stupidity example
14:18 <HumanBones> yes, a lot of people are used to zdaemon
14:18 <AlexMax> nocrao: well tbqh i like being able to force things down players throats
14:18 <May1972> Yeah but what is oda missing besides from the competitive stuff
14:18 <May1972> It has a SSG close to ZD
14:18 <nocrao> i do too alex
14:18 <May1972> Vanilla like
14:18 <nocrao> but when i put on my "greater good for doom" hat
14:18 <AlexMax> for example, i force vanilla weapon switch on
14:18 <May1972> Which btw is not weaker than ZD definitely not from what I tested
14:18 <nocrao> i think about the alternatives
14:18 <HumanBones> I think the competitive community can still grow larger, but it's not going to grow larger on private servers using outdated versions of a port :P
14:19 <tm512> AlexMax: and people get used to it
14:19 <May1972> Yes
14:19 <May1972> In oda there will be support between the administration and the league
14:19 <manc> <@AlexMax> I mean, Ladna was an odamex dev for the longest time
14:19 <manc> eh
14:19 <manc> not really
14:19 <manc> he never had access to trunk just branches, he'd coem and go
14:19 <May1972> Plus odamex gets rid of the ZDaemon blank shots problem, in addition to better unlagged code
14:19 <AlexMax> nocrao: to counterpoint, if arqon didn't take big stands with decisions on CPMA, the gameplay would have been ruined
14:19 <manc> contribute some stuff here and there but I wouldn't call him a core member so much
14:19 <May1972> Which do affect compeititon afaik
14:20 <AlexMax> for example
14:20 <AlexMax> in street fighter 3 online edition
14:20 <manc> actually my one on one with jkist went very well
14:21 <AlexMax> you can't pick gil in a ranked match
14:21 <AlexMax> because he's overpowered
14:21 <manc> unfortunately ladna copypasta'd convos from our dev channel to give to jkist
14:21 <manc> and you know when you're in a more private convo, things get hashed out
14:21 <AlexMax> should picking gill be left to players?
14:21 <AlexMax> i don't think so
14:22 <AlexMax> i think PWO forcing should be a server option with an option to vote on it with an option for the server admin to disable that vote
14:22 <AlexMax> then again, there are other options
14:22 <May1972> That could be interesting
14:22 <AlexMax> there could be a 'gameplay' vote
14:22 <AlexMax> which basically sets a bunch of settings at once
14:22 <AlexMax> executes a specific config file i guess
14:22 <tm512> [lsn] would be the oldschool servers then
14:22 <tm512> extremely strict
14:23 <AlexMax> and a server admin could prevent you from voting for that one setting specifically
14:23 <AlexMax> but allow you to callvote gameplay zd108
14:23 <AlexMax> or callvote gameplay skulltag
14:23 <AlexMax> or callvote gameplay vanilla
14:23 <May1972> hmm wtf ?
14:23 <nocrao> ok back
14:23 <nocrao> let me read up
14:24 <May1972> Maybe just 1 server os settings and 1 ns
14:24 <tm512> odamex skulltag emulation rofl
14:24 <manc> 9_9
14:24 <nocrao> manc: ladna wasn't a developer?
14:24 <May1972> Would be better Idea
14:24 <nocrao> i mean he submitted stuff he fixed/wrote
14:24 <manc> sure
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14:24 <nocrao> whether or not it was good or used
14:24 <manc> and he had write access to the branches
14:24 <May1972> To make a compliation wad for odamex like in ZDDL wad and two servers one with OS and other with the more NS setting
14:24 <manc> oh we used it
14:24 <nocrao> but yeah i do'nt think he was ever integral
14:24 <manc> but his presense was sporadic
14:24 <tm512> May1972: no need for a compilation
14:24 <May1972> Hmm ?
14:24 <tm512> just use a maplist
14:24 <manc> he fixed some good bugs
14:25 <tm512> odamex has on-the-fly wad reloading
14:25 <May1972> ah
14:25 <May1972> Yes
14:25 <manc> and mapscript
14:25 <tm512> he made some bugs too :P
14:25 <May1972> That is true tm512 so yeah one server with OS settings and another with more NS settings
14:25 <nocrao> AlexMax: i agree there are lines where developers should make strides to influence games
14:25 <tm512> hrm, well
14:26 <tm512> manc: would you be for or against having a new parameter to the addmap command, for mapscripts
14:26 <nocrao> and it's really just a subjective line i guess
14:26 <tm512> would allow you to switch settings for certain maps
14:26 <nocrao> but i think the more open a port is for allowing settings to be customized by users, the better
14:27 <AlexMax> nocrao: It's open source. If you don't give the admins the ability to force PWO there will be people who do.
14:27 <AlexMax> ;)
14:27 <nocrao> also that :)
14:27 <tm512> default to nothing of course, so it wouldnt affect current configs
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14:27 <AlexMax> through not so nice means
14:27 <AlexMax> "check to see if the weapon is expected, if not, kick for cheating"
14:27 <nocrao> really it takes a lot of the "hostaging" away from both developers and server admins
14:27 <nocrao> players can make doom whatever game they love to play
14:28 <nocrao> with whatever setting they choose
14:28 <nocrao> hell it would be cool if we could publish differet setting under macros
14:28 <nocrao> and load em up
14:28 <AlexMax> nocrao: one thing i don't get though
14:28 <AlexMax> is why you say its hostaging
14:28 <AlexMax> when anyone can run a server
14:28 <AlexMax> i mean
14:28 <nocrao> so when tm joins he can callvote vanilla_settings
14:28 <AlexMax> if you hated switcher's settings
14:28 <AlexMax> the way to change that is to run a server with different ones
14:29 <nocrao> yeah but not anyone can run a dedicated box or a vps, and certainly not on the scale that the dui servers were
14:29 <AlexMax> so?
14:29 <AlexMax> i've run as few as 3-4 servers
14:29 <AlexMax> and people know to look for [NJ] FUNCRUSHER+ :)
14:29 <May1972> :D
14:29 <tm512> nocrao: rofl
14:29 <AlexMax> the SEAL OF QUALITY
14:29 <tm512> yeah that's certainly me
14:29 <AlexMax> :P
14:30 <nocrao> and tm512 there is nothing wrong with that
14:30 <nocrao> but what if you really loved playing odamex
14:30 <tm512> I am being sarcastic
14:30 <AlexMax> also for the longest time i hated skullspree
14:30 <AlexMax> so i refused to run it
14:30 <nocrao> and they had zero servers with your brand of settings
14:30 <AlexMax> i added it only in exchange for making the servers public w/ join password
14:30 <nocrao> wouldn't it be nice to just go into a server, vote your settings and have fun
14:30 <AlexMax> which other people hate
14:30 <nocrao> instead of having to host something
14:31 <May1972> But it's not simpler to just have two servers with different settings like OS and NS?
14:31 <AlexMax> nocrao: I happen to prefer vanilla PWO enforced on duel
14:31 <AlexMax> if there's no setting
14:31 <tm512> nocrao: I have access to a dedicated server in Montreal and a VPS in Phoenix
14:31 <AlexMax> there's no way I can enjoy doom
14:31 <nocrao> you're a peach tm512
14:31 <AlexMax> because nothing is keeping the other player honest
14:31 <tm512> so I get to host what I want :P
14:32 <manc> addmap has eough parameters
14:32 <nocrao> do you feel like PWO settings are an advantage?
14:32 <AlexMax> nocrao: I feel like not being able to make assumptions about what gun a player has in their hand at a specific point an advantage
14:32 <tm512> nocrao: sort of
14:32 <manc> if you think it's important enough it can be added as an enhnancement bug as you know
14:33 <manc> but you can do if checks already
14:33 <AlexMax> like
14:33 <AlexMax> map13 of udmx
14:33 <AlexMax> has a teleport trap
14:33 <nocrao> then you're saying "i do'nt like this, but it's an advantage that since i'm uncomfortable with i'm trying to make sure no one else can use it against me"
14:33 <HumanBones> I never understood the big deal with PWO
14:33 <tm512> manc: the idea would be something like addmap map03 doom2 udmx.wad cfgs/ns.cfg
14:33 <AlexMax> if you grab the blue armor
14:33 <nocrao> and while there isn't anything wrong with that statement
14:33 <AlexMax> you're forced through a teleporter
14:33 <nocrao> i don't agree with you
14:33 <AlexMax> with a shotgun on exit
14:33 <AlexMax> PWO would break that trap
14:34 <GhostlyDeath> ReMooD's Weapon order is screwed up heh
14:34 <GhostlyDeath> I changed it based on slots heh
14:34 <May1972> More ports
14:34 <manc> shock and surprise
14:34 <May1972> :D
14:35 <AlexMax> sure some players might find that more fun
14:35 <GhostlyDeath> Slot 3 goes Shotgun, SSG
14:35 <AlexMax> but others might complain rightfully so that it fucks with the map
14:35 <GhostlyDeath> The thing is, with PWO, there's demo compatibility
14:35 <tm512> manc: addmap may have lots of parameters but you arent forced to utilize anything more than "addmap mapXX"
14:35 <GhostlyDeath> If you play back vanilla demos, you can't have PWO
14:35 <GhostlyDeath> just pure vanilla switching
14:35 <May1972> Yes but if there are many players playing it there might not be full agreement hmm
14:35 <May1972> They will always perfer or dislike something
14:36 <nocrao> my point isn't that you guys are wrong
14:36 <nocrao> it's that you're not RIGHT
14:36 <GhostlyDeath> It's that YOU ARE WRONG!!!!1
14:36 <May1972> lol
14:36 <nocrao> and that having the discussions about these things is positive
14:36 <nocrao> and to my understanding the odamex dev team wanted very little part in said discussions
14:36 <HumanBones> I dunno, it reminds me of crosshairs
14:36 <nocrao> which is unfortunate beacuse kist runs the most successful duel league ever
14:36 <GhostlyDeath> Legacy has had crosshairs for a long ass time
14:36 <HumanBones> I don't use one, I could argue that people who do have an advantage
14:36 <nocrao> and is also a good courter of players
14:37 <HumanBones> but in the end you still have to know how to aim
14:37 <May1972> With duel servers ther ecan simply be two servers for each setting NS and OS, for things like CTF/(T)DM there is usually disagreement between all players
14:37 <nocrao> i have to go play basketball for a bit but i enjoyed chatting with you all
14:37 <GhostlyDeath> For myself, I'm only going to force options that affect gameplay
14:37 <May1972> so voting will not always be good
14:37 <tm512> cya
14:37 <GhostlyDeath> bye
14:37 <GhostlyDeath> nostar and his bbal
14:40 <GhostlyDeath> ReMooD will have PWO and such (actually, Legacy already has it)
14:40 <GhostlyDeath> to a certain extent anyway
14:40 <GhostlyDeath> Might be unfinished
14:40 <GhostlyDeath> PWO breaks demos, so it is a forcable option for all players
14:41 <GhostlyDeath> crosshairs don't break demos, so it is not forcable
14:41 <GhostlyDeath> Because in reality, you can't force the crosshair when you can just hack it in anyway
14:41 <GhostlyDeath> and if someone does screw with the pure logic of the game to where synchronization is broken, they will just be kicked with consistency failures
14:42 <GhostlyDeath> So cheats are limited to aimbots and wallhacks
14:44 <GhostlyDeath> And if the host breaks pure logic and breaks synchronization, he'll only be able to play with himself
14:44 <GhostlyDeath> or others using the same cheats
14:44 <GhostlyDeath> Provided it is coded correctly for compatibility