[17:04] <Nicoleta> Hello everyone! Welcome to the IRC meeting of today!
[17:04] <Nicoleta> The goals of this IRC meeting are to discuss: 1) the CTP program and 2) the changes that will be applied in the OpenERP Publisher Warranty in a few weeks.
[17:04] <gegard> Hello!
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[17:04] <Nicoleta> Let's start by the Certified Training Partner program.
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[17:05] <Xavier_> Hello everyone !
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[17:05] <Nicoleta> our first topic on the CTP is "Pricing & schedules are flexible"
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[17:05] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress: Pricing & schedules are flexible
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[17:05] <Nicoleta> According to what has been discussed on the partner mailing list, we validate the following points: Standard prices per country/region will be proposed by OpenERP to CTP partners, but each CTP partner can apply the pricing he wants for his own trainings. However, this does not change the price invoiced by OpenERP to the CTP partner. Any questions ?
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[17:06] <FabienPinckaers> According to what has been discussed on the partner mailing list, we validate the following points: Standard prices per country/region will be proposed by OpenERP to CTP partners, but each CTP partner can apply the pricing he wants for his own trainings. However, this does not change the price invoiced by OpenERP to the CTP partner.
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[17:06] <FabienPinckaers> is it ok for everyone ?
[17:06] == mode/#openerpctp [+o FabienPinckaers] by odony
[17:06] <gegard> Yes. Can partners purchase the training materials even if they're not CTPs?
[17:06] <mykelu> is that per user or per training?
[17:06] <@FabienPinckaers> gegard: no
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[17:06] <raphael-valyi> Hello Fabien, what is the point in deciding public price if it doesn't change OpenERP SA margin?
[17:07] <gegard> Ok.
[17:07] <savyn> Second Raphael
[17:07] <raphael-valyi> free trade already enable you to charge any price you want, I see no poiint then..
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[17:07] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: will be in next topic
[17:07] <@FabienPinckaers> ok we validate this point.
[17:07] <savyn> I think have region pricing OpenERP Sa should change margin too
[17:07] <@FabienPinckaers> next topic
[17:07] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: CTP courses can be adapted, but final examinations remain the same
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[17:08] <Nicoleta> Each CTP partner can organize the trainings according to his own need and adapt to his own country (5 days/7 Days, accounting adaptations to country, ...). However, it's important to guarantee a certain level of quality amongst all students that passes an official certification. So, even if courses may be slightly different each participant will have to do: the same final exam, the same trainer/CTP evaluation survey.
[17:08] <@FabienPinckaers> Is it ok for everyone ?
[17:08] <gegard> What is curriculum for the CTP survey?
[17:09] <lmaurer> what about topic of the support which are actually not complete
[17:09] <mykelu> agree
[17:09] <lmaurer> example : finance
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[17:09] <@FabienPinckaers> gegard: satisfaction of the student according to training material, trainer, rooms, logistics, ...
[17:09] <@odony> gegard: what do you mean exactly?
[17:09] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: we continue improving, but each CTP can adapt to his own need
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[17:09] <lmaurer> ok to pay for material, but I would like to pay for a COMPLETE material
[17:09] <gegard> Ok, so it's post-training?
[17:09] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: or are you talking about the survey or content ?
[17:09] <mykelu> why not openerp for core... the rest consider as customized
[17:09] <lmaurer> content
[17:09] <raphael-valyi> Nicoleta; same final exam is not OK: in Brazil we need to spend 1.5 days on localization and all participant say it's the most important part of the training. So of course less is left to talk about the common part of the CTP, so sudents would miss some content of a common final exam
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[17:10] <thymbra> agree with raphael
[17:10] <carlosliebana> Agre with @raphael-valyi
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[17:10] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: we continue improving. The material is quite good now (6 books will be released in 2 weeks). But you can improve if you want
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[17:10] <thymbra> localization should be part of the exam
[17:10] <boodie> agree with raphael-valyi
[17:10] <thymbra> the material is not translated
[17:10] <lmaurer> so I have to pay for a not completed material and to pay to complete it.......
[17:10] <gegard> "What is curriculum for the CTP survey?" means "What do you need to know to pass the CTP test?"
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[17:11] <eric_elico> how much is the course material?
[17:11] <gegard> Is it just 'everything'?
[17:11] <thymbra> it looks like it's a one-man business the translation
[17:11] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: impossible as it depends on the country, we want a generic OFficial Certification like LPI 'Linux Prefossional Institute'
[17:11] <GiBa> greetings
[17:11] <davidrinnan> I thought the translation was made by the partner and that way an increased discount was granted?
[17:12] <@FabienPinckaers> For final exam, partners can add their specific questions. But we need a standard exam so that people can get an Official Certificate and we can ensure the quality
[17:12] <thymbra> We asked for the translation ... still waiting for it after a month
[17:12] <@FabienPinckaers> of people that received a Certificate
[17:12] <gegard> ERP differs from Linux, however, it's much closer to the way each business operates in its country.
[17:12] <@FabienPinckaers> We prefer not to have a certificate different per country
[17:13] <Nicoleta> Raphael, you can adapt teh days however you want. if you think you need more than 5 days, than you can make this change
[17:13] <@FabienPinckaers> gegard: yes, l10n_XXX modules are specific but the rest is standard
[17:13] <Xavier_> 2 davidriannan : True
[17:13] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, then you'll need to say you certify some 3 days out of 5, not 5
[17:13] <@FabienPinckaers> no, we don't do a Certificate for training less than 3 days. (not for now, we are not ready for this)
[17:13] <Nicoleta> gerard, we wrote a blog with more details http://www.openerp.com/node/714/2011/03
[17:13] <raphael-valyi> cause you cannot increase the load/price of a training for SMB's to more than 5 days as the basic unit
[17:13] <thymbra> yet we had to pay the whole price for the material.... which is in english, the technical course is not in spanish, yet we can't translate it.
[17:13] <@FabienPinckaers> Our certification are not (yet) per module
[17:13] <@odony> as CTP partners can modify the training schedule according to local needs, there is room to add a bit of time for localization,and of course additional questions can be added to the exam
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[17:14] <lmaurer> the problem is that you only have 1 training => full 5 day training
[17:14] <lmaurer> we should make training by topix (finance, production, etc...)
[17:14] <raphael-valyi> issue, is that it's pointless if you kno the difference between MTO/MTS and if you cannot create an invoice for your country
[17:14] <lmaurer> and certification should be link to this
[17:14] <Nicoleta> Thymba, what do you mean you can't translate it?
[17:14] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: you can organize 3 days training but the student will not have an examination at the end with an official certificate (for now on, we can improve this later)
[17:14] <raphael-valyi> so out of 5 days, some days need to be about the localization
[17:14] <lmaurer> you are certified for finance into openerp
[17:15] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: that's the next step
[17:15] <Xavier_> to lmaurer : right but we are not ready yet
[17:15] <vdittgen> LPI exam dont have hard localization modules!!
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[17:15] <@odony> raphael-valyi: as said, you can make it longer if you need, or reorganize the contents of the trainings, so what's the problem with localization?
[17:16] <lmaurer> to be honest, CTP is interesting only if you can have certification
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[17:16] <thymbra> Nicoleta : We are waiting for somebody to send us the translated material. We never got the source document, just the pdf. You told us that we could not translate it
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[17:16] <@FabienPinckaers> So, do people agree on this: "CTP courses can be adapted, but final examinations remain the same"
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[17:16] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, so how do you concile the need for localization training with your will to certify the whole 5 days with the same certification everywhere and without increasing the training cost beyond what is reasonable??
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[17:16] <lmaurer> for me : not agree :-(
[17:16] <Nicoleta> Thymbra, only premium CTP can translate. which is a great busines sopportunity
[17:16] <lmaurer> sorry
[17:17] <Nicoleta> as Premium CTP, you can translate the whole training and get better prices
[17:17] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: I will check what we can do. Our CTP premium that should have translated the courses did not finished on time, unfortunattely
[17:17] <lmaurer> certification is per topic or not
[17:17] <raphael-valyi> @odony problem is we cannot increase the cost for SMB more than 5 days for the basic unit
[17:17] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "odony" is not a valid command.
[17:17] <lmaurer> because client want training by topics
[17:17] <thymbra> Nicoleta : wow, now we have "premium" CTP appointed by hand ?
[17:17] <gegard> but the CTP course can only be adapted easily if you have the source ... so most people have to work hard to adapt it?
[17:17] <raphael-valyi> @odony if certif is the same everywhere and is for the 5 days without localization then not place is left for localization in the 5 days while it's considered the most important part by our participants
[17:17] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "odony" is not a valid command.
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[17:18] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: some clients need the 5 days. Waiting for having partial/modular training, we are not ready to deliver modular certifications. But we will work on this on the next months
[17:18] <Nicoleta> Thymbra, it doesn't work like that. but we have Standard CTP or Premium. and Premium can choose to translate the training in his own language
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[17:18] <thymbra> and the rest of us pay the whole amount for the packs and then we never receive the translated material. It's not serious
[17:18] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: but if the premium failed, we need an emergency procedure to avoid the problem of thymbra, we will send the source
[17:18] <damien_syleam> Premium must translate the training in his own language
[17:19] <thymbra> yes, but the course is almost over now
[17:19] <@FabienPinckaers> Next topic.
[17:19] <@odony> raphael-valyi: I don't know the specifics of the br localization, but when I give a 5-day training there is some room to reorganize the schedule and there are optional parts that can be skipped
[17:19] <lmaurer> @FabienPinckaers : ok, but what about a client who will only finance => we will have to pay for the full ctp price ;
[17:19] <OpenObjectBot> lmaurer: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[17:19] <thymbra> We've been asking for this over a month
[17:19] <gegard> i don't think that I understand any more ... who can do adaptations now - only the premium?
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[17:20] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: no you can sell a 2 days training. The only thing is that we don't have exam
[17:20] <@odony> gegard: yes, only the premium CTP currently have access to the source
[17:20] <savyn> maybe have 2 options, standard OpenERP vanilla training or localised at premium as long as Openerp sa does not touch premium localised training
[17:20] <@FabienPinckaers> but we allow you do schedule the training how you want
[17:20] <lmaurer> and regarding price for me ?
[17:20] <raphael-valyi> odony: as I said we need to spend a solid 16 hours on localization and from what I see it's the same in whole Americas. It means you need to kick out serious part of the normal training, there is not enough room left
[17:20] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: ok, we will send the sources to all CTP partners (not only to Premium)
[17:20] <@FabienPinckaers> so that we avoid difficulties like this in the future. You will get them by tomorrow
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[17:20] <raphael-valyi> odony then if you kicked some matrieal out, you cannot attempt to certify it
[17:21] <savyn> Allowing to organise the training how we want is great but we need to fit it within 5day more than 5 days does increase cost
[17:21] <raphael-valyi> exactly
[17:21] <@FabienPinckaers> savyn: yes, it's up to you, according to your customer demand
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[17:21] <raphael-valyi> Fabien: customers want 5 days (or less) + localization, by far...
[17:22] <raphael-valyi> I mean localization within the 5 days
[17:22] <davidrinnan> its a big system. 5 days is little.
[17:22] <raphael-valyi> they don't want a generic 5 days without localization where they cannot even create an invoice and then pay 2 more days
[17:22] <savyn> FP, then you should provide a standard training solution 3 days max and 2 days for localise (top of my mind)
[17:22] <@odony> ok, let's switch to the topic we are discussing then: modular trainings
[17:22] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: Selling Modular trainings (less than 5 days)
[17:22] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: Selling Modular trainings (less than 5 days)
[17:22] <@FabienPinckaers> However, we will apply some rules to improve the future: 1. the partner can sell modules (ex: only 2 days dedicated to MRP) but in this case, they are no certification exam. 2. the price OpenERP charges is 625 for 5 days, 200 per day if less than 5 days. At the top of it, OERP will push students to 5 days classes.
[17:22] <raphael-valyi> agree with savyn
[17:23] <@odony> raphael-valyi: let's say you give a 8-days training, you mean companies in br would not be willing to pay more than 5 days?
[17:23] <raphael-valyi> aboslutely not
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[17:23] <raphael-valyi> not ready to go 8 days away from company either
[17:23] <@FabienPinckaers> Do you agree with the above proposition ? You are free to organize the trainings the way you want, you choose the price, you get the sources BUT, currently, the certification apply on the basic 5 days training
[17:24] <@odony> raphael-valyi: so there's like a fixed universal training price regardless of duration?
[17:24] <savyn> agree, even in UK it is impossible.
[17:24] <@FabienPinckaers> if you want to add 1 day for localisation (like for rvalyi), you condensate the rest or sell in 6 days for a full certification
[17:24] <raphael-valyi> odony and look at the price of the competitions, you are a lot more expensive already: http://www.tieducacional.com.br/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21
[17:24] <raphael-valyi> (for ERP's that are fully localized since years)
[17:24] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: it's not a topic anymore, you choose your price.
[17:24] <Xavier_> fabien let's debrief before sending the sources to everyone - I suggest we come back to the partners asap with a good solution.
[17:25] <@odony> raphael-valyi: on top of that you localization part covers accounting, which takes 1 day normally, right?
[17:25] <coralie> is the certification a must for students?
[17:25] <raphael-valyi> odony, you cannot conver some 15 extra unsupported modules within the one day for generic accounting here
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[17:25] <damien_syleam> FabienPinckears : if you give CTP source to every CTP partner, what's the role of CTP Premium ?
[17:25] <savyn> OpenERP Sa, I think the proposal has to be rethinked as localisation is a big factor....no partner provide training but the localisation makes it a solution to the customer
[17:26] <lmaurer> odony => sorry but finance in 1 day is too littel
[17:26] <raphael-valyi> all Americas have those issues, all need dozens of extra modules
[17:26] <@FabienPinckaers> coralie: no, some will fail, but it's a strong value
[17:26] <thymbra> Xavier : It's not everyone. It's partners who pay CTP and deserve fair treatment
[17:26] <renato-Lima> I think the partners should have free to adapt some modules or topics in funcional training and certification can be for only core topics
[17:26] <mykelu> SAP Business One in my country only sells 525 Euro
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[17:26] <raphael-valyi> damien_syleam: to be exploited?
[17:26] <@FabienPinckaers> coralie: also, not only the examination is not adpated to modularity, but also trainings tests, etc.
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[17:27] <@odony> lmaurer: that depends on kind of training... for general training (not towards accountants) 1day is doable
[17:27] <lmaurer> not agree ;-) training is not introduction
[17:27] <@FabienPinckaers> next topic
[17:27] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: Suggested CTP Prices
[17:27] <Nicoleta> Just for information, according to the survey we sent to partners, a good price for a training in Europe (France) would be between 2500 and 3000 for a 5-day training. We think 2500 per week is a good price. We still have to propose something for others countries but we don't have enough feedback yet.
[17:28] <satyamitra> hi sorry for being late..
[17:28] <raphael-valyi> same here 1 day not enough for accounting, specially with dozens of extra modules you should know how to install via Linux + bzr
[17:28] <raphael-valyi> cause OpenERP SA gives us bo localization support
[17:28] <damien_syleam> Nicoleta : ithink it's a good price
[17:28] <thymbra> Nicoleta : I believer unregulated market is the only way this will work
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[17:28] <raphael-valyi> even in Spain this is the situartion..
[17:28] <@FabienPinckaers> If everyone agree, I can send all the link we got from the surveys pointing to different competitors to compare prices. They are (in France) around 2500 to 3000 on average
[17:28] <damien_syleam> but this should be a minimum price
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[17:29] <@FabienPinckaers> of course, it has to be adapted for others countries, we still have to investigate
[17:29] <mykelu> please do
[17:29] <@FabienPinckaers> damien_syleam: Unfortunately, we can not force a minimum price, most of the partners refuses this.
[17:29] <renato-Lima> In Latin America, impossible be around 2500 Euros
[17:29] <satyamitra> yeah for india as well its going to be diffrent ..
[17:29] <raphael-valyi> Fabien; free trade rules refuse this ;-)
[17:29] <@odony> raphael-valyi: yes, but with your 16hours you also replace the basic 1day accounting, so that's only 1 more day to fit... perhaps doable to shrink the rest, like customization topics, perhaps?
[17:29] <@FabienPinckaers> damien_syleam: and it's also complex in the case where partners adapt the training material
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[17:30] <damien_syleam> FabienPinckaers : so there will always be a competition between CTP partner
[17:30] <boodie> in Indonesia, it's way too high
[17:30] <Nicoleta> we have to take in consideration each region, and in case there are regualtions per country against price brackets
[17:30] <raphael-valyi> yup: divide and conquer ;-)
[17:30] <savyn> OpenERP Sa if you were based in India would you have a fix price and charge Euro amount... you fees must be adaptable and compliant to various region and time spent on localisation
[17:30] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: usually the friday is quite calm in the normal courses, so this could be feasible to integrate l18n accounting.
[17:30] <lmaurer> price is only a question of value added.... if the trainer is good AND the material is also good => i think the price is ok
[17:30] <leighquebec> Will there be on-line training available?
[17:30] <lmaurer> the problem is that the material is not ready enough, NOW
[17:31] <@FabienPinckaers> leighquebec: not in our plan yet. But we plan to launch a series of webinar
[17:31] <satyamitra> are we also discussing price segment wise for example if we offer training to students, its supposed to be lower in price than what we offer to enterprize ..
[17:31] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, please believe our experience here. Again same in problem in the whole Americas at least
[17:31] <satyamitra> may be like some educational initiative
[17:31] <lmaurer> so partners will have to invest a lot to make it better
[17:31] <vdittgen> in Brazil 2500 euros is too expensive for 5 days training, especially because in 5 days we are not able to show the basic system + localization and this topics are the minimum like rvalyi said.
[17:31] <damien_syleam> lmaurer : the translation is quite finished (for the functionnal part)
[17:31] <@FabienPinckaers> satyamitra: yes, you are right, that should be discussed with the CTP manager on case per case (for universities)
[17:32] <lmaurer> translation is 1 point => the content is an other... :-)
[17:32] <raphael-valyi> hey, thanks Vinicius!
[17:32] <damien_syleam> content is quite good too
[17:32] <@FabienPinckaers> vdittgen: you choose the price, of course, you should not apply the same price than here.
[17:32] <damien_syleam> except some points
[17:32] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: content is quite good, and we continue to improve it a lot.
[17:32] <@FabienPinckaers> lmaurer: for a first launch, it's already a very content, but need to be improved
[17:33] <@FabienPinckaers> next topic
[17:33] <raphael-valyi> Fabien: if OpenERP SA margin is the same, choosing the price is a bit short :-(
[17:33] <davidrinnan> I dont care about the cost to my customers thats my issue. I want to know the price I have to pay to OpenERP to certify my students
[17:33] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: New responsible for all CTP trainings at OpenERP: Nora Marcon (nma) as Education Account Manager
[17:33] <Nicoleta> Some of you already know Nora Marcon who is working with us for nearly 2 years. As the CTP are growing quickly and a lot of things have to be done to develop the service, we decided to assign a fulltime responsible for CTPs. Nora will be appointed as the Education Account Manager. She will work full time on the promotion and development of CTP partners & promoting OERP in universities/high scools,etc. She starts part time in Jun
[17:33] <vdittgen> localization like in americas are very hardy and need more than a day
[17:33] <leighquebec> How often would the certification have to be done? Every new release? Once only for each partner?
[17:33] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: but our price is per region too: you don't pay 625 in brasil but 625$ for 5 days. It's not that much.
[17:34] <NORA__> Hello
[17:34] <@FabienPinckaers> leighquebec: A certification is valid for one major stable release: 18 months
[17:34] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, believe me, we are negative at the bank since the CTP training...
[17:34] <mykelu> hello Nora
[17:34] <gegard> Hello Nora
[17:34] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: how much do you sell a 5 days training for a seat ?
[17:34] <thymbra> 625 for untranslated material is a lot
[17:35] <satyamitra> thanks nicoleta and fabian .. our major consirn is to know the price we offer to students in one month time may be we are going to start this training session for students
[17:35] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: we will send you sources and translations. Sorry for the delay, we will push the other partner to finish asap.
[17:35] <joel_camptocamp> Fabien: The content is good for a whole overview of the functionalities and you did a good job ! But for a full training on the solution => what we provide and need to provide, this is not enough unfortunately.
[17:35] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, I would say 1300 USD on average (discount if 2 trainings). We also have costs... Translating, localization is a lot of work...
[17:35] <thymbra> Fabien : It's been a month. I can not rely on other partner. I want to, and I need to do it myself.
[17:36] <thymbra> The students need a spanish translator
[17:36] <anegrinm> Hello Nora
[17:36] <@FabienPinckaers> joel_camptocamp: agree, we still have to improve a lot. That's why I have 3 full time people on it.
[17:36] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, we also accept partail payment like everybody does in Brazil..
[17:36] <thymbra> home english... .hello = hola . It does not make sense
[17:37] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: we charge you 468$ per seat, so how can you be negative ? I am also very negative on this :) 3 full time people on content.
[17:37] <vdittgen> Fabien SAP accepts payments in 20 times here in BRazil for some trainings!
[17:37] <joel_camptocamp> Fabien : This is a good news ! But what we will do NOW ? I mean, we need to pay it, and also need to work hard to complete it => this won't make it. We then may be need a "transition" solution yet.
[17:37] <@odony> vdittgen: for what kind of price?
[17:38] <@FabienPinckaers> joel_camptocamp: the content is good NOW. We used it, we still use it and people like. (we have to add the 6 books that will be released in 2 weeks to be perfect)
[17:38] <gegard> Even though you have written the material in English I would still like to make it better, but I am not sure if I am allowed to or able to now
[17:38] <raphael-valyi> @vdittgen @FabienPinckaers but mostly here SAP has only 3% of the SMB market, so it doesn't really matter how they price, THEY ARE NOT THE COMPETITION
[17:38] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "vdittgen" is not a valid command.
[17:38] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, we agree, the generic content is pretty good
[17:39] <Nicoleta> 375 EUR for Premium and 625EUR for standard. that;s what the partner has to pay to OpenERP. the price for clients is the partner who decides
[17:39] <davidrinnan> Nicoleta: sounds good
[17:39] <vdittgen> odony, about 3700 euros for a 20 days trainng: http://www.hbbrasil.com.br/dados_curso.php?id=7
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[17:39] <raphael-valyi> now we need modularity that fit localizations (and believe me a lot is lacking in the core of OpenERP) and reasonable per region prices
[17:39] <@FabienPinckaers> Any other questions on CTP ? or we continue on OPW changes ?
[17:39] <mykelu> 2000 euros here in the PH
[17:40] <satyamitra> last year for student training we charge 25 k per seat which is arround Euro 500 . which is a very good price in india for student trainign waht do you think
[17:40] <thymbra> What are the basis to select "premium" or "standard" CTPs ? It looks like a gas station
[17:40] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: may be you should do 2 weeks training in brasil to increase a bit the price but keep a good price per day ? That would allow you to add your localisation. Seems like the others do that ?
[17:40] <Xavier_> Fabien We can define the process for CTP Premium
[17:40] <mykelu> satyamitra: that is great pricing
[17:40] <raphael-valyi> vdittgen, please feel their survey too. I also gave them this link to show them how too expensive they are http://www.tieducacional.com.br/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21
[17:40] <raphael-valyi> err, fill
[17:40] <Guest28459> Is the training material available for purchase?
[17:41] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: we made some announcement. We discussed with the partners that asked firsts and accepted them if they where good enough.
[17:41] <satyamitra> but this year we would like to present it with openerp trainig material
[17:41] <vdittgen> rvalyi i alwready did that, tks
[17:41] <raphael-valyi> Fabien you also need to consider an other factor: OpenERP is not as mature evrywhere
[17:41] <satyamitra> is this the fine price we both can getsomething fabin
[17:41] <thymbra> I don't agree on this "premium" or "standard" . It's not fair
[17:41] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, you can reasonnably install and use Allinone on windows in France
[17:42] <satyamitra> Agried with raphael we are not sap
[17:42] <Nicoleta> Premium, because he took the time to do it. time and resources ar emoney
[17:42] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: it is, we discussed with the best partners and those that discussed with us when we launched and announced the CTP.
[17:42] <Nicoleta> they have to be acknowledge and repaid for it
[17:42] <raphael-valyi> but in Brasil, without Linux and bzr, don't even think about installing the loaclization. Means that costs will extend a lot more than the basic training. Too expensive means high frustration
[17:42] <thymbra> ah... is a matter of "best" partners ....
[17:42] <@FabienPinckaers> translating takes a lof time, so it's normal that those that translates get reduction. It's also normal that we don't ask several partners to translate in the same languages
[17:43] <thymbra> and the rest of us are idiots that pay the full price for an untranslated material
[17:43] <damien_syleam> translating and testing the things written in the content to translate
[17:43] <thymbra> pathetic
[17:43] <Nicoleta> depends what is considered a best partner. we are after all in a win-win relationship
[17:43] <thymbra> so give us the money back
[17:43] <davidrinnan> would we have to produce a minimum number of certifications per year?
[17:43] <thymbra> and tell those "best" partners to translate the material, don't fool us
[17:44] <thymbra> and have respect for the students
[17:44] <raphael-valyi> thymbra we are premium here, well believe us it's a fucking amount of work to translate it all. Specially the smart PorwerPoint 2010 slides we need to edit on slow virtual machines...
[17:44] <Xavier_> When we get a new CTP premium in a country, he has 2 months to translate and we will guarantee that others CTP in the same country do not announce courses before these 2 months
[17:44] <savyn> FP, then allow the BEST partner to translate, pay them for their effort and let them distribute the content for the local region,
[17:44] <gegard> davidrinnan: a minimum number of course at least
[17:44] <Nicoleta> more info ttp://www.openerp.com/node/714/2011/03
[17:44] <@odony> raphael-valyi: dual-boot? ;-)
[17:44] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: don't make me say what I did not said :) To choose CTP Premium, we discussed with those that asked us and that where experienced good enough
[17:44] <davidrinnan> which number is the minimum number of courses?
[17:45] <Nicoleta> please read our blog, if you have questions, let us know
[17:45] <davidrinnan> there is not screaming need for courses here in sweden. Do I take a risk by making our company CTP??
[17:45] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: if we did not choosed thymbra as a CTP, it's because you did not reacted to our propositions we made on the partner list about CTP partners (or at least several months after nohmar)
[17:45] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: 30 seats per year
[17:45] <vdittgen> FP i agree totaly with savyn!
[17:45] <thymbra> I never got an email about it. When I asked to translate it a month ago, i never got the chance.... I'm still waiting for it...
[17:46] <davidrinnan> so I need to purchase a minimum of 30 seats per year
[17:46] <davidrinnan> thats more than the amount of people exposed to openerp today, as users :)
[17:46] <davidrinnan> in sweden
[17:46] <thymbra> Yes, I asked for it in the partner list, but my email was censored
[17:46] <raphael-valyi> same here...
[17:46] <gegard> davidrinnan:http://www.openerp.com/node/714/2011/03 - Sell at least 30 seats per year
[17:46] <raphael-valyi> and same for Ana Juaristi Oralde, CTP of Spain..
[17:46] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: you purchase only when you sell (apart for the firsts 8 that you have to prepay), but if you don't do 30 seats on the year, we can stop our CTP agreement on the next year
[17:46] <satyamitra> fabin even we Enova technologies are ignored in this process of invitation if you say, we have sent several emails to discuss about being ctp
[17:47] <thymbra> I believe the material, as we agreed, should be available in a open document format for all CTP partners
[17:47] <davidrinnan> FabienPinckaers: ok that makes sense
[17:47] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: because we invest a lot on the CTP program and we can't work with people that just sell 5 seats per year
[17:47] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, I agree with that
[17:47] <davidrinnan> FabienPinckaers: and who in sweden would sell more than 5 hehe
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[17:48] <coralie> how often do you plan to update training materials?
[17:48] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: we are ready to give all our training customers to CTP partners, but we also expect CTP partners to be professional in their trainings and to promote trainings too.
[17:48] <@FabienPinckaers> coralie: continuously (we have 3 full time people on docs & training material) but a new version of the material will be given to each new OpenERP version (minor every 6 months, major every 18 months)
[17:48] <davidrinnan> being professional is not in conflict here. Its the fact that in the beginning there wont be enough demand in our country.
[17:49] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: what's your country ?
[17:49] <davidrinnan> sweden
[17:49] <@FabienPinckaers> if it's a problem of demand, we can still discuss (I doubt we can't do 30 seats on one country, with a minimum of marketing investment)
[17:50] <eric_elico> same here: plus no need for certification when you have no market to sell being certified
[17:50] <@FabienPinckaers> next topic ? we go to OPW topics.
[17:50] <davidrinnan> once the system works fully for accounting in sweden it wont be a problem. But that is something we have to deal with and invest in, not you, right?
[17:50] <davidrinnan> :)
[17:50] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: Changes to be applied in the OPW
[17:50] <Nicoleta> We will add more services in the OpenERP Publisher Warranty: a few hours of support per contract (used by the partners or the customers, you choose); add a dual licence that allows to support non open source/specific modules for the customers (currently, without this, the customer has to distribute all his modules under the AGPL licence), the ability to have live chat support in direct with our teams (the partner can activate o
[17:50] <satyamitra> so fabain i am still avaiting my answer can we propose price of 25 k to students,
[17:50] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: yes
[17:50] <satyamitra> this year
[17:51] <@FabienPinckaers> satyamitra: to be discussed with Nora, she will contact you after the meeting.
[17:51] <satyamitra> thanks
[17:51] <raphael-valyi> I voice VERY STRONGLY AGAINST DUAL LICENSE, WHERE DOES THE GPL ALLOWS THAT? ARE YOU SURE YOU MADE EVERY SIGNLE LINE OF OPENERP FOR THAT?
[17:51] <chanon> I don't understand "currently, without this, the customer has to distribute all his modules under the AGPL licence"
[17:51] <carlosliebana> add a dual licence that allows to support non open source/specific modules for the customers (currently, without this, the customer has to distribute all his modules under the AGPL licence) --> What?
[17:51] <savyn> I remember the days when a Certified Training Partner met that these partners are trained by the software editor, set a standard of traiining and material, localised, no seating agreement but a recurring revenue for the Editor as and when the software is updated the CTP must pay for update training. Why not keep this model and allow the local partners or CTP to carry on with doing great work (not only implementation but training too) Must easier and
[17:51] <savyn> frustration
[17:51] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: If not, we are ready to reimplement. But customer need a solution.
[17:52] * thymbra really misses tinyerp
[17:52] <raphael-valyi> for me this would be the beginning of the end if OpenERP makes an "entreprise version" regardless of the contributions
[17:52] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: the AGPL forces you to release all your modules in AGPL too (so every user should be able to get the sources). This is good for the open source nature of OpenERP as it forces everyone to publish everything in open source
[17:52] <satyamitra> agried with raphael
[17:52] <raphael-valyi> FabienPinckaers I believe the community is ready to re-implement as well...
[17:52] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: but some customers absolutly need to not distribute what the partner developed for him
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[17:52] <gegard> Can we easily change the URL for Live Chat Support so that it goes to the local partner instead of OpenERP? ... or must we just change that somewhere in the source code?
[17:53] <Eckhard> agree with Raphael
[17:53] <chanon> AGPL does not say that
[17:53] <@FabienPinckaers> Don't you have customers requests to not distribute what have been done for them ?
[17:53] <chanon> Only if you sell service / distribute the software
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[17:53] <chanon> It is perfectly legal in AGPL, provided they own the right
[17:53] <lep> I think that if we make AGPL customizations for a customer, and he doesn't want do distribute them, and he is the user, than nobody sees them and that's OK already
[17:54] <raphael-valyi> Fabien today, just like you can install NVidia driver or ATI driver on Linux, you can have an OpenERP module talking to proprietary code. Now that OpenERP module needs to be open and you cannot distribute both together. So where is the big deal?
[17:54] <chanon> lep, ou are right, it is not possible to enforce thos
[17:54] <chanon> this
[17:54] <vdittgen> wollllllllllll, my concepts about openerp are changing
[17:54] <davidrinnan> what is the dual license. I dont fully get it
[17:54] <chanon> But again what has been said about agpl is not correct
[17:54] <gegard> it depends on OpenERP enforcing it, too
[17:54] <Nicoleta> there are already many clinets (of our partners) who requested customized modules and they do not want to publish them
[17:55] <@odony> lep: actually that's not acceptable for many large companies... any employee is legally allowed to leave the company and release the company's "not-published" modules
[17:55] <Nicoleta> how can someone force them to?
[17:55] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: an OpenERP module is considered linked to OpenERP. It's not a matter of distribution
[17:55] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers, many of us do not re-distribute OpenERP modules as per customer request. GPL allows this perfectly. All it requires is that you does not sell the module later without giving the code under GPL. How can OPEnERP SA ignore that?
[17:55] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers," is not a valid command.
[17:55] <lep> would it be legal to have closed modules with the AGPL code as it is now?
[17:56] <@FabienPinckaers> lep: not
[17:56] <coralie> Some customers pay for customizations they do not want to redistribute just because its gives them a competitive advantage. think of replenishment algorithms for instance
[17:56] <carlosliebana> Agree with Chanon,
[17:56] <@FabienPinckaers> lep: that's why some customers need a dual licence for their own purpose.
[17:56] <lep> odony. I get you point
[17:56] <chanon> the answer is yes.
[17:56] <damien_syleam> agree with coralie
[17:56] <davidrinnan> so the dual license allow for what? and what does it cost? =)
[17:56] <raphael-valyi> and for those that does not agree with GPL, well they can try Openbravo model to see if it works better (no), so where is he big deal?
[17:56] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: nothing more, we include this service as part of the OPW
[17:57] <Eckhard> Don't tell you have delivered, don't try to re-sell it and it is in accordance with AGPL, or not?
[17:57] <@FabienPinckaers> davidrinnan: so we don't remove anything, nor any rights. OpenERP fully remains AGPL. But if a customer can not use AGPL, he has a solution
[17:57] <openerp_argentin> GPL dosn't force you to distribute the code
[17:57] <davidrinnan> so you include coverage of the non certified non published module
[17:57] <chanon> so f you have the opw, you can sell the software without giving the source?
[17:57] <openerp_argentin> please get a little bit more of information
[17:57] <@odony> See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLModuleLicense
[17:57] <eric_elico> is there a link explaining clearly the pb of dual licencing?
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[17:57] <carlosliebana> RT so if you have the opw, you can sell the software without giving the source?
[17:58] <openerp_argentin> you can have a "private" module without having to give it to the world
[17:58] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, Akretion developed an OOOR based technology that easily allows to bind to proprietary without violating any license cause all API web-service based. You can buy us the technology, no need to freak with the GPL
[17:58] <openerp_argentin> you dont sell the software, you sell a service
[17:58] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: yes, but only for one customer as the OPW is valid only for one named customer.
[17:58] <@odony> openerp_argentin: yes, but any user/employee is perfectly allowed to release it anytime they want
[17:58] <lep> another issue: I think you can do that for modules that are copyrighted by yourself (openerp SA). are there important modules belonging to other companies that could not agree on the dual license?
[17:59] <raphael-valyi> eric_elico: pb of dual licensing is that OpenERP SA would like o change the license unilateraly after exploiting us an receiving thousands of patches and conribs
[17:59] <coralie> I have to leave. very instructive discussion. I still think the 5 days training price should be set up by open ERP & not partners, with a different prise per region. Price for less than 5 days training should be set up by partners
[17:59] <openerp_argentin> that user/employee signs a NDA or contract saying that he is not going to do it
[17:59] <raphael-valyi> under the GPL license only
[17:59] <@FabienPinckaers> lep: it's allowed by the GPL licence: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLModuleLicense
[17:59] <@odony> coralie: thanks for the feedback!
[17:59] <@FabienPinckaers> if we face a copyright problem, we are ready to do an IP protection for customers and reimplement what's a problem
[17:59] <thymbra> coralie : don't agree. The price will be set by the partners.... that's what was agreed upon before
[17:59] <@FabienPinckaers> and we keep everything under AGPL of course
[18:00] <vdittgen> ok openerp_argentin, but this module need do be agpl too, you just dont give to others, as you said its a private module but it have to be agpl
[18:00] <openerp_argentin> the only thing that gpl "forces" you to do is that if you are hired to make a module, you have to give its source code to the company that hired you
[18:00] <carlosliebana> We have a lot of modules for our clients not published due to "competitive advantage". Are they violating AGPL? Would they violate AGPL without OPW?
[18:00] <raphael-valyi> not to say that without community contribution, then open source is a myh and there is no reason it to be cheaper than proprietary product as R&D cost becomes the same
[18:00] <chanon> so, if I buy the opw for me, I can distribute it without source ?
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[18:00] <Nicoleta> carlos, the OPW will cover that
[18:00] <raphael-valyi> carlosliebana exactly
[18:01] <raphael-valyi> sounds a very wrong pretext for me
[18:01] <openerp_argentin> thats the most unreasonable thing i could expect from a software called opensomething
[18:01] <@FabienPinckaers> openerp_argentin: and you have to give the source to anyone that uses your module. So very difficult to keep it private
[18:01] <raphael-valyi> question, Fabien are you still in control of the shares or what?
[18:01] <chanon> carlosliebana : depends, when you sell your modules to your customer , you must follow agp.
[18:01] <vdittgen> dual-license doensnt make sense, private GPL modules make!!
[18:01] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: yes, stop FUD pleas
[18:01] <@odony> carlosliebana: they're not violating it, but any of their employees (imagine someone who was fired) are allowed to publish them ... not every company has their employees sign an NDA about open source internal code
[18:01] <openerp_argentin> FabienPinckaers: and what is the bad part of that?
[18:02] <eric_elico> _if a customer ask for a module and I dont make it public that s ok right
[18:02] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, was just a question. I cannot understand your agumentation about GPL now, sorry
[18:02] <carlosliebana> but they keep the module for themselves! they don't sell it to anybody
[18:02] <chanon> I think this is breaking the community spirit
[18:02] <eric_elico> problem is if I write a module, I cannot avoid the customer to make it public later right?
[18:02] <eLBati> odony, they should make their employee sign...
[18:02] <gegard> eric_elico: but you must give source to client
[18:02] <@FabienPinckaers> vdittgen: dual-licence is even explained in the GPL Faq itself: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLModuleLicense
[18:03] <Eckhard> agree with eLBati
[18:03] <eric_elico> gegard: ok
[18:03] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, dual license is okay when you are the only copyright owner
[18:03] <chanon> Anyway, we should see your secondary licence
[18:03] <raphael-valyi> now, you can hardly tell that after all the patches and merges coming in for year
[18:03] <@FabienPinckaers> But to be clear, we do not remove anything. Everything remains in AGPL.
[18:03] <raphael-valyi> only under the GPL license
[18:03] <@FabienPinckaers> IT's just a solution for customers that need an alternative.
[18:03] <raphael-valyi> and with not contributor agreement
[18:04] <@FabienPinckaers> So we don't remove anything, we just allow more possibilities
[18:04] <vdittgen> you can say GPL compatible license!!
[18:04] <chanon> Actually this is not an issue for customers
[18:04] <wimdr> A custom made module is only custom if used with the right proces in the same branch!
[18:04] <thymbra> I believe the community and some of the partners who believe in free software have seen a drastic change in OE policy in the last year. This is not FUD
[18:04] <raphael-valyi> Fabien yes you do remove!
[18:04] <chanon> But a recurring issue for integrator
[18:04] <raphael-valyi> we conributed to that projects under a set of assumptions
[18:04] <raphael-valyi> like it's GPL
[18:04] <gegard> that's the issue - those that have contributed might only agree with [A]GPL
[18:04] <raphael-valyi> now we should face competition from people that won't have this constraint
[18:04] <carlosliebana> so, I can tell you for sure that in 99% of our clients we made custom modules, maybe a new field on partner or a full custom module
[18:04] <wimdr> If a custom made module is changes with one field the meaning is different
[18:04] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: yes, it is, we got a lot of requests from partners. Some customers can not distribute what they do as it's part of their value. Think about a Bank for instance.
[18:05] <@odony> what's the big problem with allowing companies to *officially* make private modules? OpenERP stays AGPL, so what do you fear? What right do you think is removed?
[18:05] <wimdr> This is what I tell my customers
[18:05] <renato-Lima> FB but the license must be compatible with GPL license
[18:05] <raphael-valyi> take the Magento connector or the loicalization, we invested a lot under the GPL
[18:05] <carlosliebana> if they don't want to distribute, are they violating AGPL?
[18:05] <raphael-valyi> do you believe we are happy to compete with people that don't enfore the GPL now?
[18:05] <@FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: that's not a problem, but you must release all your modules under AGPL
[18:05] <chanon> So, we taking the road of open bravo craps
[18:05] <@odony> apparently you are all doing it already... so what's the problem with allowing to do it legally?
[18:05] <@FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: any employee of the customer is in his rights to asks for the source and distribute
[18:05] <@odony> or officially
[18:05] <raphael-valyi> exactly
[18:06] <raphael-valyi> odonny: it's abolsutely not the same!!!
[18:06] <raphael-valyi> odony, Fabien
[18:06] <raphael-valyi> please what is the license of Linux?
[18:06] <gegard> carlosliebana: only if they distribute without the source do they violate GPL ... even then somebody (OpenERP) must pursue them
[18:06] <raphael-valyi> can you not use ATI or NVidia drivers?
[18:06] <chanon> Could you re explian what the result will
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[18:06] <carlosliebana> I think you are wrong. They don't distribute them.
[18:06] <raphael-valyi> now Linux is not a dual license trap...
[18:06] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: please stop FUD; Openbravo develop proprietary modules; OpenERP SA WILL NEVER develop proprietary modules
[18:06] <chanon> customer buy, opw and can then resell without the source code?
[18:07] <carlosliebana> so, no AGPL violatin at all
[18:07] <@odony> raphael-valyi: whats the trap? cut the FUD and make sense please?
[18:07] <chanon> I am not fuding
[18:07] <eric_elico> dual licence increase complexity and reduces visibility as open source
[18:07] <raphael-valyi> odony; the trp is you exploit us under the GPL assumption
[18:07] <@FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: GPL is about distribution, AGPL is about usage. If someone use, he should request the sources.
[18:07] <Nicoleta> You already said you develoepd customed mudiles for your clients
[18:07] <raphael-valyi> and now you'll sell it to the prorietary bastards that will compete with us without the constraints we had and reusing our own work
[18:08] <Nicoleta> and did not make them public, I think Openerp still is open source, while some of you are not chosing to do so
[18:08] <raphael-valyi> this is the trap!
[18:08] <raphael-valyi> Openbravo allows commercial modules
[18:08] <Nicoleta> we already repeated that we will not become proprietary, but it's a service for partners who are already not making public their customized modules
[18:08] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: no, EVERYTHING we do remains and will always be AGPL.
[18:08] <raphael-valyi> do you believe the Brazilian localization is open?
[18:08] <raphael-valyi> ?
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[18:08] <Xavier_> I suggest we try to keep the discussion constructive.
[18:08] <thymbra> this is constructive
[18:08] <eric_elico> selling and not publishing a custom module out (but giving the code and source to customer) is still open source
[18:08] <raphael-valyi> why the hell do you think we invested 2 years on teh Brazilian localization?
[18:08] <chanon> Could you explain what will be the right of somebody buying this secondary licence option? Sell, distribute?
[18:08] <@odony> raphael-valyi: how would that be different from today? anyone can do the same already, just not we a full legal protection
[18:09] <raphael-valyi> odony: absolutely not the same!
[18:09] <raphael-valyi> today if a competitor improves the Brazilian localization:
[18:09] <lep> Nicoleta: as this is a hot and tricky topic , I suggest you make a written document about it with your reasons
[18:09] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: just use; not sell, not distribute
[18:09] <eLBati> Nicoleta, it's not a license issue: if customer doesn't want to redistribute , he doesn't and he doesn't violate AGPL
[18:09] <@FabienPinckaers> we don't want proprietary modules to be distributed
[18:09] <@FabienPinckaers> this is a good point
[18:09] <raphael-valyi> he has to release it under GPL or keep it totally private, no re-sell it, not compete with us
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[18:09] <thymbra> Nicoleta : No... it won't work... documents are censored !! They won't reach the partners !
[18:10] <enlightx> :)
[18:10] <raphael-valyi> tomorrow he can sell its localization extension and compete with us, he never had to make the investments we made...
[18:10] <eric_elico> ELbati ok with you
[18:10] <davidrinnan> ok they cannot resell it. so then it becomes a non issue right?
[18:10] <chanon> agreed with raphael
[18:10] <@FabienPinckaers> So, we do a dual licence just so that a customer can use for himself. We don't accept someone to sell or distribute non open source modules
[18:10] <davidrinnan> they are just making their own customizations private? right. They cannot sell it to someone else
[18:10] <satyamitra> but raphael has a mazor poiint if we have dual licence, nobody will be in compition of contribution under GPL
[18:10] <@odony> raphael-valyi: no that's not true, the people being granted the license won't be allowed to redistribute!
[18:10] <chanon> This is unfair. All your contributed modules now could become de-open-source legally
[18:11] <@FabienPinckaers> It's just because, sometimes, a particular customer need an alternative for himself
[18:11] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers, again, how is that different from what GPL allows already?
[18:11] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers," is not a valid command.
[18:11] <chanon> odony if they don't distribute there is no need for another licence
[18:11] <raphael-valyi> exactly
[18:11] <chanon> AGPL is about conveying
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[18:11] <vdittgen> so they have to release under a compatible GPL license and dont sell that! its ok, but when you say dual-license is the problem!!
[18:11] <thymbra> Nicoleta : No... it won't work... documents are censored !! They won't reach the partners !
[18:11] <@odony> chanon: we just explained that yes there is need if you want a full security
[18:12] <thymbra> All the MEDICAL entries I had in the planet were censored, as well as my mails to the partner list
[18:12] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: only a very few, a customer is not forced to distribute the source to his employees (that can publish on the web). Big companies, with legal department, asks for this.
[18:12] <gegard> but we know that people are selling OpenERP modules without providing source, even though it's not dual licenced now ... OpenERP probably doesn't know and won't prosecute
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[18:12] <chanon> I keep asking what will be the right , but have not seen an answer
[18:12] <raphael-valyi> odony, where is the big deal in thelling them to fuck themselves if they want more security?
[18:12] <raphael-valyi> we are all submerged by demand
[18:12] <@odony> many companies CANNOT just rely on the good faith of their employees and contractors, and won't touch anything that would allow them to redistribute inside material legally
[18:13] <Nicoleta> we already explained that the partner mailing list shoudl contain constructive topics that will interest all the partners, not just 2
[18:13] <raphael-valyi> it should not be a problem to refuse some leads
[18:13] <@FabienPinckaers> gegard: exactly, good point. The goal then is to try to have every one to publish what they do in AGPL. We will work on the website to say that all modules on OpenERP must be distributed in AGPL.
[18:13] <Nicoleta> all important information reaches the partners.
[18:13] <raphael-valyi> alsway better then telling contributors to fuck themselves
[18:13] <satyamitra> and if there are two worlds of openerp officially one contributing and anther hiding source, openerp will becope more hidden than open, conciquences are not just limited to openerp sa
[18:13] <@FabienPinckaers> Today, we don't try to promote the fact that people must release their modules. Tomorrow we will.
[18:13] <pepeu> Nicoleta, +1
[18:14] <raphael-valyi> odony: No and No: companies can sign an NDA with their employees. It's dead simple an already required in most IT companies where employees see code
[18:14] <Xavier_> Sorry but i need to leave you guys ! I will debrief with Fabien. Thank you for your valuable insights. Happy selling !
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[18:14] <Eckhard> agree with raphael
[18:14] <davidrinnan> imho customers who cannot deal with opensource should not use opensource
[18:14] <raphael-valyi> +1
[18:14] <@odony> raphael-valyi: what's the sanction if you violate the NDA? you lose the job?
[18:14] <chanon> +1
[18:15] <openerp_argentin> davidrinnan: +1
[18:15] <gegard> FWIW, I don't think that OpenERP will be able to dual licence because they don't have the agreement of other contributors
[18:15] <raphael-valyi> sanction can be more than that
[18:15] <davidrinnan> they dont have to share the code. so there is not risk for them that their own legal department cannot handle already
[18:15] <@FabienPinckaers> satyamitra: I repeat; WE WONT ACCEPT PROPRIETARY MODULES TO BE SOLD/DISTRIBUTED, as the dual licence we will deliver is only for one customer that bought an OPW. A partner/reseller would not be able to sell a proprietary module to several customers.
[18:15] <openerp_argentin> odony: you get hang in the central park
[18:15] <raphael-valyi> Favien how will you prevent this exactly?
[18:15] <@odony> raphael-valyi: not usually... and after you're fired you're not bound by the same terms... it's a different agreement to decide
[18:15] <thymbra> Nicoleta : What is constructive for you ? very subjective and far from being democratical
[18:16] <raphael-valyi> sorry, but this all sound a slow slope toward and "OpenERP entreprise crap" move...
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[18:16] <pepeu> davidrinnan, +1
[18:16] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: the dual-licenced is only licenced to the one that purchased the OPW (named customer)
[18:16] <Eckhard> So as long as I sell OPW I can resell the 'proprietary' code?
[18:16] <chanon> What about a customer offering a SaaS
[18:17] <chanon> In agpl, they should distribute the code
[18:17] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: same, he has to distribute everything he developed under AGPL
[18:17] <@odony> Eckhard: No, you can't resell anything, the license would be for private use only.
[18:17] <carlosliebana> imho customers who cannot deal with opensource should not use opensource --> IMHO partners cannot deal with publishing every small change or module we develop, and cannot deal with OPW for every customer
[18:17] <gegard> OpenERP don't have the agreement of other contributors, do they? Or are all the modules made only by OpenERP these days?
[18:17] <thymbra> Very dissapointed.... OpenERP is far from the free concept it was tinyerp.... this really sucks
[18:17] <chanon> all jjoomla modules on theur repository are with source code
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[18:17] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: or he bought an OPW for every saas customer which is very complex and increase their cost
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[18:18] <Eckhard> Who is enforcing this? I change a few lines of code and move to the next customer and get an OPW, or do I miss the point?
[18:18] <@FabienPinckaers> gegard: we are ready to redevelop some parts if necessary and put a legal protection for customers.
[18:18] <chanon> So you are going to create this mess, just for enterprise who forgot a non disclosure agreement with their suppliers or employee?
[18:18] <raphael-valyi> +1
[18:18] <Eckhard> +1
[18:19] <@FabienPinckaers> 1. We want to promote on the fact that everything must be AGPL
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[18:19] <raphael-valyi> I'm sorry, but I trust GPL and free software foundation much more than the new OpenERP SA proprietary license...
[18:19] <satyamitra> raphael : lets try to understand both point of view, we need openerp sa to be strong enough ( financially as well ) so to keep promoting a good product
[18:19] <@FabienPinckaers> 2. But partners need a solution for customers that can not release what they did
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[18:19] <raphael-valyi> I mean even the time of this meeting was not properly announced, how can we put all our trust here?
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[18:19] <chanon> Not a problem, they can read agpl
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[18:19] <@odony> chanon: NDAs don't cover this fully, what about employees that were fired, left, and so on. Some companies just don't play with this at all, we have many demands about that
[18:20] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: OpenERP remains fully AGPL. It does not change what we do.
[18:20] <vdittgen> so that is the point, like Fabien sad they are ready to redevelop things and when the enterpise version comes??? this is bas
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[18:20] <vdittgen> this is bad*
[18:20] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers how will we trust your new proprietary license will have no hole ate all to prevent reselling proprietary modules?
[18:20] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:20] <davidrinnan> can I put some sort of license on modules that I release so that they cannot be part of a dual license option?
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[18:21] <carlosliebana> I think there are thousands of problems bigger than this and this is going to cause more OpenERP bad marketing
[18:21] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: the key is that everything remains AGPL, that's what's important. This is the guarantee the community need. If you have an AGPL version, everyone has the guarantee that OpenERP remains open source.
[18:21] <@odony> damien_syleam: sure, just release them as AGPL only ;-)
[18:21] <raphael-valyi> +1000000000000000000000000
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[18:21] <@odony> err that was for davidrinnan
[18:22] <@FabienPinckaers> AGPL+Dual Licence is nearly the same than LGPL.
[18:22] <satyamitra> raphel : there are some clients certainly who want no distribution of there code and want to pay extra for that. what will you do will you refuse him to create a module what ?
[18:22] <chanon> The current system put those who want to play by the rule in a stronger position. In your proposal, we will get more and more integrators not contributing bak their work
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[18:23] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers contributors are not stupid: not only they need the guarantee of the GPL, but to secure their investments, they also need a guarantee that they will not face an unfair competition from people that are not playing by the same rules
[18:23] <@FabienPinckaers> satyamitra: +1 --> raphael develop web-services stuff to not release his code under open source licence.
[18:23] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:23] <Eckhard> +1 channon
[18:23] <satyamitra> lol
[18:23] <carlosliebana> <@FabienPinckaers> satyamitra: +1 --> raphael develop web-services stuff to not release his code under open source licence. ----> I can't accept this when Akretion is the most opensource company in the OpenERP community
[18:23] <@odony> What unfair competition? the license would not allow you to redistribute...
[18:24] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: the rules are good and some than in MySQL, RedHat, etc. Those that do not want to distribute what they do have to pay for this. The others benefits from the AGPL
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[18:25] <raphael-valyi> carlosliebana: at least it makes guarantee that such binding are rare because it implies a performance drain
[18:25] <chanon> Well you do 1 module, you protect it with opw, you go to the second customer, you protect it with opw etc isn't that proprietary
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[18:25] <chanon> But it is opw, opw,opw
[18:25] <chanon> I understand you see interrest
[18:25] <raphael-valyi> FabienPinckaers those products didn't have their license changes after a community developped them under a GPL only assumtion
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[18:25] <raphael-valyi> and speaking about MySQL ?I'm not sure the community is very happy by the last moves...
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[18:26] <@FabienPinckaers> chanon: yes, I think it's fair. If you don't want to distribute under AGPL, you pay an OPW so you finance the development of the AGPL.
[18:26] <satyamitra> chanon : who else here don't see intrest ?
[18:26] <satyamitra> are we doing business or what
[18:26] <davidrinnan> can you prevent the SaaS thingie... that I have an opw closed source and sell access to it to my customers?
[18:26] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: it does not create competiton has the licence is only for using, not for distributing. -> that is if I trust you about building a 0 defect proprietary license
[18:26] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers>" is not a valid command.
[18:26] <raphael-valyi> I'm sorry but I don't
[18:26] <raphael-valyi> I trust the Free Software Fondation much more
[18:26] <carlosliebana> THE BIG QUESTION ON OPW: who gives us guarantee of the localization modules not developped by openerp?
[18:26] <raphael-valyi> again, lot's of things have been amateurish in the past
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[18:27] <carlosliebana> WE ARE NOT GOING TO SELL OPW UNLESS THE LOCALIZATION MODULES ARE COVERED
[18:27] <chanon> I see the interrest, except it is hard to sell without the right to do a Saas
[18:27] <raphael-valyi> I should show the first OPW contract I signed, like a 5 lines contracts back to 2008...
[18:27] <carlosliebana> so the debate is over
[18:27] <raphael-valyi> we can put no trust in that
[18:27] <raphael-valyi> you are not lawers
[18:27] <@FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: the OPW covers migrations and bugfixes on localization modules.
[18:27] <raphael-valyi> and we don't want to pay you to pay lowares either
[18:27] <vdittgen> i would be not happy today if a had develop some mysql code
[18:27] <thymbra> migrations tools should be freely available
[18:28] <thymbra> otherwise you create lock-in
[18:28] <davidrinnan> gotta go.
[18:28] <@FabienPinckaers> ok, I think we have to work on a clear FAQ so that we all discuss having everything clear in mind.
[18:28] <@FabienPinckaers> I propose that we prepare something clean to avoid unclear/untransparent questions
[18:28] <satyamitra> +1
[18:29] <echeverrifm> FabienPinckaers, +1
[18:29] <@FabienPinckaers> Then I send this to the partner mailinglist and we discuss the issues on this topic.
[18:29] <mykelu> +1
[18:29] <@FabienPinckaers> before an official launch
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[18:29] <lep> thymbra: I disagree on that. what openerp SA sells is not just the migrations scripts, but the people adapting them to the customers. it's a service
[18:29] <@FabienPinckaers> thymbra: you can develop migrations stuff if you want. It's open source, it's the way open source works. If you ask me to do it, it's a service, it's not open source.
[18:30] <lep> FabienPinckaers: +1 on the FAQ
[18:30] <Eckhard> OK and what are the chances to sway your position on that, Fabien?
[18:30] <@FabienPinckaers> Ok, next topic.
[18:30] <Guest27528> +1 on the FAQ
[18:30] <vdittgen> many obscure things now
[18:30] <boodie> +1
[18:30] == odony changed the topic of #openerpctp to: OpenERP CTP Meeting in progress - Current Topic: Pricing of the OPW - Need to share the new pricing as well 10-25 3.950; up to 70; 9.550; up2150 15.500; over 150 users on demand
[18:30] <thymbra> lep : if migrations where part of contracts in general, OpenERP would not exist. Imagine GNU/linux, python or Postgresql demanding a support contract for their migrations
[18:30] <Nicoleta> According to our last survey and feedback we get from partners; the current price of the OPW is good for companies with more than 10 users, cheap for companies more than 75 and expensive for companies less than 10 users.
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[18:30] <raphael-valyi> about OPW, we thing the same, only useful when matched local prices and still totally useless as long as we need around 15 non certified modules (at least, only for the localization) while OpenERP SA guys have no clue about how a simple invoice looks like here
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[18:31] <raphael-valyi> Nicoleta, I think you have to consider the different regions
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[18:31] <raphael-valyi> I agree about that for Benelux/France
[18:31] <mykelu> +1
[18:31] <echeverrifm> raphael-valyi, +1
[18:31] <carlosliebana> raphael-valyi +1
[18:31] <raphael-valyi> not for Brazil neither South America
[18:31] <mykelu> nor SEA
[18:31] <chanon> Mh don't be that fast for belux
[18:31] == JavierS [be8fa804@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.143.168.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[18:31] <eric_elico___> or asia
[18:32] <Nicoleta> In order to improve this, we will make a new price for customers < 10 users; 165 EUR per month (to be adapted per country according to our rules). Customers can apply to this price under the following conditions: payment is made by credit card only (so that we can easily do recurring payment), only if it's taken at the beginning of the project. If a partner pays for his customer, we deduce the partner discount.
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[18:32] <echeverrifm> raphael-valyi, hondura, guatemala, salvador and others
[18:32] <vdittgen> nicoleta for us in Brazil is expensive as i sad in the survey
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[18:32] <Nicoleta> this option will help a lot smaller enterprises
[18:32] <@FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: yes, prices are adapted of course to countries, like usual: America: 30% less, India: 50%
[18:33] <thymbra> by the way, migration scripts used to be available in TinyERP....
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[18:33] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers that leaves Brazil at the same price as the US... Now livings standards are not the same yet...
[18:33] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:33] <chanon> Lot of admin, plus you are now annoucing direct sales
[18:33] <chanon> Glad to be partner
[18:33] <FabienPinckaers> vdittgen: with your partner reduction, it's 145 USD/month in brazil. Isn't it acceptable ? How much do you charge an implementation compared to this ?
[18:33] <vdittgen> Brazil = US ??????
[18:33] <vdittgen> no way!!!
[18:33] <FabienPinckaers> chanon: it's not direct sales, resold by partners
[18:33] <FabienPinckaers> vdittgen: How much do you charge an implementation compared to this ?
[18:33] <chekoua> please dont forget adaptation of price for africa also
[18:33] <chanon> why then "If a partner pays for his customer, we deduce the partner discount."
[18:33] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers 145 USD month and you should triple it to account for 1st level support as this is only 2nd level support
[18:33] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:33] <mykelu> is SEA also india rate?
[18:33] <chanon> Isn't that direct
[18:33] <santagada> brazil should at least be equal to india, but probably even lower if you take reality into consideration :)
[18:33] <FabienPinckaers> chekoua: yes, we have to think and propose something, we will prepare a clear mail for the mailing list
[18:34] <carlosliebana> how can the client use his opw? reporting bugs in english? should the partner report for him?
[18:34] <FabienPinckaers> mykelu: you have to ask to your account manager, I don't have the exact prices per country in mind, sorry.
[18:34] <raphael-valyi> santagada not to say that India speaks English pretty well, not Brazil...
[18:34] <mykelu> thanks
[18:34] <chanon> And anyway it is too expensice, for 1 person doing just invoices for example
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[18:35] <FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: has everything we do, it's a second level support. So the customer contact his partner that can ask us to fix if it's a problem.
[18:35] <chanon> A comparable closed source package is 200 for a permanent licence
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[18:35] <vdittgen> FP the problem is that the services you offer today on the OPW increase the client account and dont offer mucha advantage to him, like rvalyi sad (we are not the same partner) is for the 2nd or 3nd level support today
[18:35] <carlosliebana> ok, secon level in official module, right?
[18:35] <renato-Lima> in Brazil can be: 1 to 25 users = 1800 USD anual fee, around R$ 260 per month
[18:36] <FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: yes, usually you maintain your own modules yourself, you don't need us.
[18:36] <raphael-valyi> Agree with Renato, 1800 USD is ok for a 20 people company here, now not below 10
[18:36] <vdittgen> renato-lima +1
[18:36] <satyamitra> can we buy opw as a partner and distribute it to our clients in case they are small clients using just 1 or 2 module like just invoicing or inventrory .. can it be a solution
[18:36] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers that 1st level support does cost us a lot
[18:36] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:36] <lep> chanon: I don't think you can compare simple, cheap accounting programs with and ERP. it's a different market. And you wouldn't be interested in implementing it for 200e.
[18:36] <carlosliebana> ok, thanks.
[18:36] <raphael-valyi> even more as the product isn't very stable and as it's easy to screw it all
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[18:36] <raphael-valyi> even more if we have 25 extra modules (15 for localization + 10 for customizations)
[18:36] <FabienPinckaers> satyamitra: not possible. For us the cost is per customer. The more you have customers, the more issues we will have to answers and the more migrations we will have to do.
[18:36] <raphael-valyi> that leaves us with price that are not so competitive
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[18:38] <thymbra> This is going nowhere... at the end, they will put their own rules .... that's what has been happening in the last year.... most of us are just mere spectators
[18:38] <satyamitra> but fabain if its same modules used for all of them..?. is migration going to be diffrent ?
[18:38] <raphael-valyi> Fabien, we had a negociation for 1800 USD for up to 20 employees,that's okay. Now to scale we would need those price to be public, not just a specific negociation this doesn't scale
[18:38] <carlosliebana> raphael-valyi +1 If we set a 1st level department here, we can settle the 2nd level department by our own
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[18:38] <carlosliebana> at least for our clients
[18:38] <FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: are you kidding ? Openbravo: 500 EUR per user/year, Compiere: 400 USD per user/year. OpenERP: 180 EUR including migrations !
[18:38] <wimdr> Have an option for OPW for <10 users without migration for a lower price. Customers with <10 users use OpenERP basic! Partner can do migration
[18:38] <vdittgen> the 1st level support in brazil cover all our localization stuff, and this is a lot of support!! really!! <renato-Lima> in big companies (more 25 users) in Brazil I think we can sell for same prices! <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers Openbravo or Compiere have roughly 0% share here!! <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:40] <raphael-valyi> what matters is the competitions: Totvs, Microsiga and all, it doesn't matter what other do
[18:40] <FabienPinckaers> It's really low costs. As the CEO of redhat said; the problem with open source companies is that they are frustrated about pricing, most of them under invoice everything.
[18:40] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers it can be a different service
[18:40] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:40] <FabienPinckaers> SAP: 1800 EUR user/year
[18:40] <FabienPinckaers> competitions is 3 to 4x more expensive than OpenERP
[18:40] <raphael-valyi> Brazilian used to buy cars that weren't as good as in Western counries for years
[18:40] <damien_syleam> Fabien +1
[18:40] <raphael-valyi> I believe they can accept an offer that has more limitation
[18:41] <echeverrifm> FabienPinckaers, +1 for mexico
[18:41] <raphael-valyi> now it's better if they have some offer
[18:41] <wimdr> AFAS ERP in Holland offers support, migration, update for 1.100 per year/10 users!
[18:41] <carlosliebana> competitors have level support in the same languaje as the partner and client in each contry
[18:41] <FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: I am pretty sure you deliver much better product and service than competitors :) So it's normal to invoice more.
[18:41] <wimdr> Of course no custom modules or connections to the software possible
[18:41] <carlosliebana> 2nd and in some cases 1st
[18:41] <damien_syleam> windr : does AFAS ERP provides the same functionnalities than OpenEERP ?
[18:41] <raphael-valyi> Fabien; if you don't bite the bullet all you'll have is un-official competition and forks. You told about Compiere. Now in Brazil, they only have Adempiere...
[18:42] <FabienPinckaers> guys, the goal is not to be the lowest price possible.
[18:42] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers you and me are sure about this, now our customer aren't at all
[18:42] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:42] <FabienPinckaers> the goal is to create a good market where everyone is profitable
[18:42] <wimdr> Yep and specific branche specific solutions as well, but no customizatio!!!!
[18:42] <raphael-valyi> and years of maturity over a market aren't wiped out in just a few years
[18:42] <vdittgen> Brazil its going to be a big partner so we have a chance to follow this scneario, so we need prices to enter in the market
[18:43] <FabienPinckaers> You should not be frustrated to propose more than competitors for a higher service. That's totally normal.
[18:43] <vdittgen> today is very difficult to sell the OPW here
[18:43] <odony> you are saying you're overloaded with demand in brazil...
[18:43] <satyamitra> can somebody remove openobjectbot
[18:43] <FabienPinckaers> Most of the customers that chose OpenERP choose OpenERP because they are excited about it. This is a great value.
[18:43] <odony> satyamitra: I'd rather not, he's recording the conversation ;)
[18:43] <FabienPinckaers> We can not be at the same time "the best service in the world","the best product in the world", and cheapest price. That would kill the OpeneRP market.
[18:44] <raphael-valyi> @odony it's true there is a very high demand. But it's very little elastic with the price
[18:44] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "odony" is not a valid command.
[18:44] <carlosliebana> Most of the customers that chose OpenERP choose OpenERP because they are excited about it. This is a great value. ----> I don't agree, Most need and ERP and OpenERP is one option as others
[18:44] <carlosliebana> you have to focus in "the best product in the world" and us in "the best service in the world"
[18:44] <wimdr> Carlos. there should be other reasons as well!!!
[18:44] <FabienPinckaers> and together on a "fair price", not a "low price"
[18:45] <carlosliebana> agree
[18:45] <carlosliebana> this is a win to win between you and us
[18:45] <eric_elico___> dp +1
[18:45] <FabienPinckaers> carlosliebana: you have to focus in "the best product in the world" and us in "the best service in the world" --> totally agree
[18:45] <eric_elico___> fp +1
[18:45] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers I agree that one one side OpenERP is far superior and you can defend it (but it costs you). Now there are other basic aspect where OpenERP is way inferior; we are still struggling just to have the tax values right still with open bugs OpenERP core + limitations such as fiscal postion not being at the invoice line level...
[18:45] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:45] <wimdr> We competed with close source and won because we have same functionality, but were open and ease to connect in a hybrid environment
[18:45] <satyamitra> yeah i think we should work toogether raphael , to fight among ourself is not the only option , market is full of compititors
[18:46] <wimdr> Not on PRICE!
[18:46] <thymbra> how about the end user ? The end user should be able to upgrade their standard system without the need of a migration or support contract
[18:46] <FabienPinckaers> thymbra: if you are ready to deliver migration services for free that's super :)
[18:47] <savyn> FP, I would say most people choosing openerp is because it is EXCITED yes and cheap too... The word freedom in open source is wrongly used and now with all these chargeable services it is not cheap. We have been competiting with MS Dynamics always...big deals but when it came to localisation we fail badly and thus why we focus on localisation... Thi sis some OpenERP Sa must understand without localisation and partner you fail.
[18:47] <thymbra> no
[18:47] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers you could sale 10x what you sale today in Brazil with no more effort than today, just by re-allocating marketting expense to the proper R&D
[18:47] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:47] <wimdr> Try to upgrade SAP without the help of expensive consultants.....
[18:48] <raphael-valyi> I mean you could secure a lot more money than today in the volume. But for that you need better unit prices
[18:48] <thymbra> Fabien : I actually do.... many health centers in developing countries ask for my support, and I give it for free
[18:48] <vdittgen> the OPW its not so interesting for brazilian clients that we are talking, and we have many compatitors here that sell full brazilian designed softwares that feet their needs in very especific way!
[18:48] <FabienPinckaers> savyn: yes, but unfortunatelly we don't have the knowledge of the market. So localisation is the only area where we can not help a lot to build a great product.
[18:48] <thymbra> What is not ethical is to place lock-ins
[18:48] <FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: it's mostly a problem of margin
[18:48] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers you could actually try to interract more on the expert lists, we have been bothering you for months for simples features that would cut the entry barrier a lot
[18:48] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:48] <FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: more than a problem of volume
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[18:49] <FabienPinckaers> raphael-valyi: today we have difficulties to deliver an OPW in less than 5 days of services in the year (support+migrations). So if I decrease the price more, I have a serious trouble.
[18:49] <raphael-valyi> vdittgen: we agree that OPW is totally useless for 5 people companies here
[18:49] <odony> thymbra: that's great if you can do it for free, but we can't do the same, our Migration Department has to be financed somehow
[18:49] <raphael-valyi> vdittgen now for larger companies like 20, OPW price at say 1800 USD is competitive we believe
[18:49] <FabienPinckaers> thymbra: and we want to finance 120 developers to develop AGPL module
[18:49] <FabienPinckaers> thymbra: the OPW finance the R&D of OpenERP which is great for the future of the product
[18:50] <savyn> YEs Sir, I agree you do not have the localisation expertise, but this is where we come in... and we need this recog... so the pricing must allow us to ensure we can sell our service and OpenERP services too. The price must be right and the service behind the price must equate correctly. So far, OpenERP Sa, providing some good ideal for service but locally it is hard to resell this. Please note I am not saying selling openerp but openerp services.
[18:50] <FabienPinckaers> thymbra: if OpenERP does not evolves quickly, it will be beaten by proprietary competitors in 5 years
[18:50] <vdittgen> rvalyi, i agree in that terms the renato said.
[18:50] <raphael-valyi> @FabienPinckaers say that for developping countries: answer time is 10 days instead of 5 and put a limit on it
[18:50] <OpenObjectBot> raphael-valyi: Error: "FabienPinckaers" is not a valid command.
[18:50] <satyamitra> good night everybody have to leave chatting on the way to home on highway now bye take care .... i hope we can conclude something at the end about prices,is somebody going to sent the conclusinve report
[18:51] <FabienPinckaers> I think we can conclude on these.
[18:51] <FabienPinckaers> Thanks everyone.
[18:51] <savyn> Good night satyamitra
[18:51] <thymbra> You could charge in the non-standard migrations. But the other standard situations should be documented and freely available <FabienPinckaers> We will work on a detailed FAQ and explanation and send to the partner list for further discussions.
[18:51] <satyamitra> thankue so much bye
[18:51] <chanon> bye to all
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[18:51] <raphael-valyi> bye, what a consensus...
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[18:51] <thymbra> We need Free software and no censorship
[18:51] <Nicoleta> Ok, thank you everyone for your feedback. We will compute all provided feedback and send an email to the partner list with a summary of all the changes. We will update the website, the brochures and the contracts accordingly. We keep you informed.
[18:51] <FabienPinckaers> thymbra: I have 3 full time people on documentations (and they are financed by OPW actually)
[18:52] <savyn> A bientot
[18:52] <vdittgen> ok this is a start...
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[18:52] <savyn> goodnight
[18:52] <FabienPinckaers> Bye.
[18:52] <FabienPinckaers> Good Evening.
[18:52] <vdittgen> thymbra +1
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[18:52] <eric_elico___> good night
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[18:52] <lep> bye all
[18:52] <wimdr> Bye