21:03 -!- db90h [i=WcfA@24-151-249-208.dhcp.kgpt.tn.charter.com] has joined #freewrt
21:04 < wbx_> ulmen: bad documentation can kill a device for a unexperienced user.
21:09 < db90h> yes, the openwrt way is do nothing unless its done absolutely perfectly, so i'd wait to write documentation until you've devised a way to write it in a univerrsal language that can be easily understood by other sentient species we may encounter in the future.
21:10 < db90h> </sarcasm>
21:10 < db90h> i don't really know what u are talking about, but if ulmen is askng about user provided docs, I think you guys need to be encouraging him and whoever else to contribute whatever they want to your project
21:10 < mirabile> they can contribute by email
21:11 < db90h> you should give the users what they want, not what you want them to have. If they want a wiki, give it to them.
21:12 < wbx_> db90h: you are just joining and complaining. you did not get the complete discussion.
21:13 < mirabile> db90h: we give the users what they really want, not what they think they want
21:13 < mirabile> read michael ende's neverending story
21:13 < db90h> this attitude is openwrt all over again
21:13 < mirabile> actually, no
21:13 < db90h> you guys are no different
21:13 < db90h> and that's my opinion, not a complaint
21:13 < mirabile> it's better than openwrt
21:13 < db90h> its your project, do what you want
21:14 < db90h> my projects i'll cater to end users, not dictate to them
21:14 < mirabile> we're not leaving random information in a couple of places unstructured
21:14 < db90h> your projects u can develop for yourselves and be kings of your domain
21:14 < mirabile> yeah, sure. whatever you take, take less.
21:14 < db90h> better random pieces than none
21:14 < mirabile> actually, no.
21:14 < db90h> the random pieces can come together eventually
21:14 < mirabile> better no than false information
21:15 < mirabile> this bazaar style of yours won't ever produce quality documentation
21:15 < mirabile> just like how GNU/Linux manpages suck ;-)
21:15 < mirabile> oh, wasn't it texinfo pages?
21:15 < db90h> u start with something that isn't perfect then it slowly gets to a usable state.. waiting until something is perfect to start it makes for nothing to be done
21:15 < mirabile> (how come most distros don't even install a texinfo browser by default?)
21:15 < mirabile> no
21:15 < mirabile> if something is not good (!perfect), it's not committed
21:15 < db90h> cuz who would want one except 0.001% of the population?
21:16 < mirabile> and the best thing would be if nothing would be committed without documentation
21:16 < db90h> should i go through freewrt and point out all the places that things could be more ideal?
21:16 < db90h> u have to compromise
21:16 < db90h> its about pragmatism.. get the job done
21:16 < db90h> but, do it right as well..
21:17 < db90h> i am just worried forever more everything that is sent to u will be picked apart and told why it isn't ideal, then nobody dares contribute because nothing is every absolutely perfect.. just like happens elsewhere.. besides that, consider the context here, thsi isn't development that is critical to the security of the world
21:18 < mirabile> if you get the job done, but some time afterwards it falls apart due to not being good enough, I consider that bad
21:18 < db90h> i'm trying to remind u why u forked, because imho u seem to have forgotten (based on your development work so far)
21:18 < mirabile> hurts reputation too
21:18 < db90h> i'm not saying write trash
21:18 < db90h> i'm saying nothing is perfect and u have to compromise
21:18 < mirabile> 1. would you please write normal english, because your slang gets harder to understand
21:18 < db90h> there is am iddle ground
21:18 < mirabile> 2. I was not the one who forked
21:19 < db90h> ur zealotism is hard to understand as well
21:19 < db90h> u aren't trying to debate, u are just getting defensive
21:19 < db90h> first point is to insult my irc writing skills, come on
21:19 < mirabile> sorry I am no fucking american who understands that kind of slang easily
21:19 < db90h> ok, that's enough trying to shape freewrt's lost cause for today
21:19 < mirabile> talking for myself, not for freewrt, now
21:20 < mirabile> reading that *$*&(Y^(Y really takes me longer than normal correspondence in english
21:20 < mirabile> and english isn't my first (or even second) language
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21:22 < db90h> i just wish u guys had taken the route of getting things done rather than reinventing things that need not be reinvented. If this was a commercial projcet then the market would dictate you not waste time in such pursuits.
21:23 < mirabile> you talk nonsense based upon half-knowledge
21:23 < mirabile> that's the most dangerous kind of knowledge
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21:23 < db90h> i'm sorry, was that a response or some personal attack?
21:25 < mirabile> I think it was both
21:25 < mirabile> more a response, probably
21:25 < mirabile> you don't know about what happens on freewrt
21:25 < mirabile> you don't know the people behind
21:25 < mirabile> so don't make unqualified statements like we were reinventing the wheel
21:26 < db90h> i do see what you've done and haven't done
21:26 < db90h> and my personal disappointment in the direction you've taken
21:26 < db90h> but that's your perogative, as it is mine to be disappointed in you
21:27 < db90h> but i am not the only one. Users hoped finally a good firmware would cater to THEM. Now its all about what the developers feel like coding, or recoding. Not adding new things that users want.
21:28 < mirabile> actually, current freewrt development is almost entirely based upon direct user needs.
21:28 < mirabile> too bad you can't know that.
21:30 < db90h> like building under BSD? who needs that but you and 10 other people?
21:30 < mirabile> building isn't something users do
21:30 < mirabile> building is something developers do
21:31 < nbd> so what do your users want?
21:31 < mirabile> it's an internal thing increasing productivity, nothing more
21:31 < mirabile> not my domain... I do the build system and fwcf only
21:31 < db90h> the building is what you seem to be spending time on, and it sure doesn't seem to increase productivity (to me)