hadeshorn> i would say that some of the most self-righteous and tedious people i've ever met are also some of the smartest people i've met
<__joe> correlation doesn't imply causation
<Topaz> those sorts also being actually bright is rarer than being less bright
<__joe> there is an overlap between the two groups, but they're not the same group
<Topaz> they're often trying to compensate for something
<hadeshorn> it is possible that intellecutal superiority creates a distancing between the intelligent person and the average person in this country's school culture; smart kids are in with normal kids, and tend to be shunned
<hadeshorn> as a result, smarter people have very little 'normal' social interaction, and that which they do have is with people dumber than them
<Topaz> making them less experienced at human interaction and more likely to be self-righteous and tedious?
<__joe> Not 'less experienced', necessarily
<__joe> often things like self-righteousness are reactions to being told that one has little value
<__joe> in high school, most of one's peers don't value intellectual curiosity or intellect
<__joe> so we create our own value system and position ourselves at or near the peak of excellence, devaluing our detractors in the process
<Topaz> not always, but often
<Topaz> but yes, and that's what hadeshorn was saying before
<Topaz> just... less verbose
<__joe> er
<__joe> it's not exactly the same
<__joe> there's a difference between a communication gap caused by isolation and the formation of a new personal metric for judging the value of others
<__joe> but whatever
<hadeshorn> regardless of what the mechanic is, exactly, there exists a mechanic in most places such that the majority of the population, which is average by definition, is distanced from the intellecutal portion, and facing negative social pressure from most of the population either causes the intelligent to play dumb to fit in, or to try to emphasize their differences by exaggerating their nerdiness
<__joe> sure
<hadeshorn> and i don't think that the personal metric for judging others is necessary formed reactively
<Topaz> we're getting sidetracked, but this is still interesting
<hadeshorn> if it's interesting, we'll just change the topic
<Topaz> grar, give me a sec
<hadeshorn> except that i'm not an op and can't change it
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<__joe> oh, i think it's definitely formed reactively, because human society is founded on mimicry
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<Topaz> isn't everything founded on mimicry at that level?
<__joe> that's what society means - shared values, shared experiences
<__joe> geeks in the wild have different behaviors than geeks in a cage like high school
<__joe> I am referring to your high schools and not mine (;
<hadeshorn> jocks in the wild have different behaviors than jocks in a cage like high school
<__joe> Well, taking myself as an example
<__joe> I was a total bastard elitist jerk in junior high
<__joe> because I was surrounded by people who basically felt I was worthless
<hadeshorn> ... and you still are :P
<__joe> not good at sports, didn't party, whatever
<hadeshorn> to which of your previous lines, i won't comment :)
<__joe> but when I switched environments, I became much more easygoing, friendly, polite, etc
<Topaz> seriously, __joe, you're worthless unless you're drunk all the time and play football
<__joe> the geeks I knew at my high school, that is to say, most of them, were by and large enthusiastic, outgoing, friendly people, because there wasn't this junior high culture
<Topaz> i'm not sure where you keep getting these crazy ideas
<hadeshorn> as for formation of personal metrics, i would say that it's internal; everyone creates a metric such that they are on top in the areas that matter
<Topaz> now, pause for a moment and take the other perspective
<Topaz> include mimicry -- people treat intellectuals a certain way because everyone else does
<hadeshorn> whom, topaz?
<__joe> right, mimicry is how these structures persist through generations
<Topaz> flip around 'intellectual's perspective of people'
<Topaz> ==> peoples' perspective of intellectuals
<Topaz> or, more interestingly, how does one break someone out of the cycle?
<hadeshorn> simple: make a personal choice
<Topaz> how can you grab someone already trapped in it and fix it
<Topaz> or should you only associate yourself with people who /like/ intellectuals regardless of whether they themeslf are one?
<__joe> Point out the structure, point out how there's no value in drawing that line between 'us'
<__joe> and 'them'
<hadeshorn> simple: encourage them to make a personal choice
<__joe> get them to read dostoevsky
<Topaz> nobody cares to put enough effort into reading a text on the subject
<Topaz> and personal choices are, well, personal
<hadeshorn> as an interesting social experiment, put them into a situation in which only that which they don't value is emphasized; for example, a sports game for nerds, an intellectual irc chat about social development trends for the jocks
<Topaz> so take someone in the cycle and plant them in an opposing group?
<hadeshorn> in an attempt to get them to see the value in things they may under-value
<__joe> there are actually some very appealing aspects of most sports
<hadeshorn> essentially, yes, topaz
<__joe> that has a high chance of backfiring, hadeshorn
<Topaz> yeah, like... determining a ball's distance via binocular vision analysis
<__joe> i think you have to reframe the event in terms that are amenable to the person
<Topaz> that was always my favorite part
<hadeshorn> them saying, "yeah, this is even dumber than i thought"
<__joe> or, alternately, the strategy inherent in football
<Topaz> there are lots of ways of it backfiring
<__joe> or the statistics analysis of baseball
<__joe> those are things that many nerds do enjoy
<Topaz> it was actually one of the points of the babylon 5 episode last night
<Topaz> force your belief on someone and they'll recoil into their own view even more
<Topaz> alright, how about this
<Topaz> should one make a point not to associate with people in an anti-group?
<Topaz> that is, for example, should nerds make it a point not to associate with anti-nerd groups?
<__joe> they already do that
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