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00:16:57 <DragonSamurai55> Hello there, either of the ops present?
00:22:52 <VDZ> echoMateria was here just a moment ago, not sure if he's still here...
00:23:27 <DragonSamurai55> Hm, all right, thanks.
00:24:25 <VDZ> AFK now, I guess...
00:24:32 <echoMateria> hi there
00:24:37 <VDZ> Ah, there he is
00:24:49 <echoMateria> how can I help?
00:25:37 <GipFace> We'd like to discuss an e-mail exchange between us and Yorhel a few months ago
00:26:06 <echoMateria> so why don't you ask him instead of this channel's ops?
00:27:10 <VDZ> Because it's 0:25 AM in the Netherlands, and Yorhel might be asleep already
00:27:18 <echoMateria> hehe
00:27:58 <echoMateria> well if it's private you can PM or mail him if not you can say what you want here, he'll see it later
00:29:50 <GipFace> Well, we may as well discuss it openly
00:29:51 <GipFace> http://imgh.us/email.jpg
00:31:16 <GipFace> We did not receive a reply after that response
00:31:22 <DragonSamurai55> Indeed.
00:31:47 <DragonSamurai55> So we were just hoping to continue the conversation was all.
00:31:50 <GipFace> We want to hear out your side of the argument
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00:32:50 <VDZ> v67 v68 v24 v2153 v93 v92
00:32:50 <Multi> [v67] Higurashi no Naku Koro ni @ http://vndb.org/v67
00:32:50 <Multi> [v68] Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kai @ http://vndb.org/v68
00:32:50 <Multi> [v24] Umineko no Naku Koro ni @ http://vndb.org/v24
00:32:50 <Multi> [v2153] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru @ http://vndb.org/v2153
00:32:50 <Multi> [v93] Muv-Luv @ http://vndb.org/v93
00:32:50 <Multi> [v92] Muv-Luv Alternative @ http://vndb.org/v92
00:33:20 <VDZ> Higurashi is all intended as one story, Umineko is all intended as one story, Muv-Luv is all intended as one story
00:33:47 <VDZ> However, the individual titles in the story were released separately, so they're separate games in the same series
00:34:21 <LoSs> Hello GipFace, you sexy beast
00:34:34 <VDZ> If you were to buy the games, you would have to buy the games separately as well
00:34:39 <VDZ> Even though they're one big story
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00:35:43 <VDZ> Separate games get separate entries
00:36:08 <GipFace> In your example, the company markets each of those entries as separate
00:36:19 <GipFace> That is not the case with ef; it is treated as one title on minori's web site
00:36:50 <DragonSamurai55> shall i go find a proxy and link?
00:36:54 <GipFace> A chunk of latter tale's text is in first tale. They originally intended the whole thing to be one release only
00:36:55 <echoMateria> well, your argument on the ef case makes sense, at least that's an easy one
00:36:58 <LoSs> I will side with GipFace
00:37:07 <LoSs> his opinion is too sexy
00:37:12 <LoSs> so just merge it already
00:37:19 <echoMateria> but on the other hand when you mention Muv-Luv, it's not as simple as that
00:37:28 <VDZ> Are they sold as one package, instead of as two separate games?
00:38:00 <VDZ> Because Muv-Luv is also 100% intended as one game, but circumstances caused the developer to release it as two games instead of one
00:38:09 <echoMateria> well it would make sense to have them as seperate releases under one game entry
00:38:17 <echoMateria> for ef
00:38:27 <echoMateria> but muv-luv's case is a bit confusing
00:38:33 <VDZ> Not really.
00:38:43 <VDZ> None of the first tale's content is present in the latter tale
00:39:00 <GipFace> You're mistaken there
00:39:06 <VDZ> So their first releases were obviously different games
00:39:09 <GipFace> DS55, if you please~
00:39:09 <VDZ> I am?
00:39:15 <DragonSamurai55> yup
00:39:19 <DragonSamurai55> The final script of first tale
00:39:30 <DragonSamurai55> is word for word the first script of latter with slight changes
00:39:44 <DragonSamurai55> (Theres a montage played instead of the ed movie)
00:40:08 <VDZ> Okay, so it has one script in common
00:40:27 <DragonSamurai55> and that script has the command to link to latter tales first script commented out, but its there
00:40:37 <VDZ> It's not uncommon for a sequel to repeat the last part of the earlier installment
00:40:48 <DragonSamurai55> so its obvious they just arbitrarily picked a point to split
00:40:59 <GipFace> It's not a sequel, the explanation is in the e-mail
00:41:02 <VDZ> Yeah. But they were initially released as separate games
00:41:06 <echoMateria> since Muv-Luv is Muv-Luv + Muv-Luv Supplement + Muv-Luv Alternative + Ayu Mayu Alternative + Muv-Luv Altered Fable and some of those releases have other games and stories in them as well, so it wouldn't work in any way to combine them
00:41:29 <VDZ> echoMateria; Muv-Luv alternative directly continues Muv-Luv
00:41:44 <echoMateria> I finished them all
00:42:03 <GipFace> Was Muv-Luv Alternative planned from the very beginning?
00:42:09 <VDZ> Yes.
00:42:29 <VDZ> Muv-Luv doesn't really end, the story continues in Alternative
00:42:34 <echoMateria> all muv-luv was supposed to be one game but they ran out of money and time etc etc
00:42:34 <VDZ> Just like with Higurashi and Umineko
00:42:49 <GipFace> All right. But the company markets it as different games
00:43:19 <VDZ> They were initially released as different games
00:43:54 <VDZ> Unless the latter tale contains practically all of the first tale (like Little Busters Ecstasy does with Little Busters), it's a separate game
00:44:12 <GipFace> In Japanese, yes. In English, no
00:44:32 <VDZ> English is a re-release
00:44:32 <GipFace> We removed all references of first tale and latter tale in our localization
00:44:37 <VDZ> Japanese was the original release
00:44:38 <GipFace> We don't want the public to be confused
00:44:49 <DragonSamurai55> Personally, I dont mind if its a separate, new page if you dont want to merge
00:44:51 <GipFace> Yes, so just merge and have two entries under the Japanese heading
00:44:56 <echoMateria> gah, don't cut stuff from games -_-;
00:45:04 <DragonSamurai55> a new entry as "ef a fairy tale of the two" would also be acceptable, I would think
00:45:11 <VDZ> [00:43] <GipFace> We don't want the public to be confused
00:45:23 <VDZ> But what about the people who read the Japanese versions? Wouldn't they be confused if we'd merge them?
00:46:00 <GipFace> From the FAQ: "VNDB attempts to collect and present as much information as possible that would otherwise be very hard to find for the English speaking audience."
00:46:21 <GipFace> At the moment, "first tale" and "latter tale" are the answers to trivia questions
00:46:21 <VDZ> English speaking audience does not necessarily play their games in English
00:47:10 <GipFace> Then that's what the Japanese heading is for
00:47:41 <GipFace> The correct title for the game is "ef - a fairy tale of the two." and Wikipedia reflects that
00:48:41 <VDZ> Wikipedia also merges all of Umineko, all of Higurashi, if it has an entry also all of Muv-Luv, it condenses all anime with multiple seasons into one article, etc
00:49:14 <VDZ> The reason for that is not because "it's supposed to be one thing", it's because the individual entries in the series "aren't notable enough" to get their own pages on Wikipedia
00:49:23 <izmos> we should merge all da capo games into one game
00:49:24 <izmos> brilliant idea
00:49:34 <VDZ> "One Outs" has a single article for both the manga and the anime
00:49:41 <VDZ> Does this mean that the manga and the anime is the same product?
00:51:25 <GipFace> No, but now you're pretty much supporting a merge, aren't you
00:51:43 <VDZ> Oh, even more fun examples on Wikipedia: The Clannad VN, manga's and anime have one single article, and Kimikiss has a single article for everything in the series, even though the game, anime and manga's are completely different and only share characters
00:51:56 <echoMateria> maybe in the future we would have more detailed pages for releases and such an argument about gathering them on a page becomes usefull but at this moment it seems the userbase is divided
00:52:14 <VDZ> I'm not. VNDB's notability guidelines are only "Anything that is a VN is notable.", unlike Wikipedia
00:52:21 <GipFace> Bottom line is, the English release of ef is going to be one title, and we'd really like VNDB to reflect that
00:52:29 <VDZ> VNDB does reflect that
00:52:37 <GipFace> We believe that was minori's original intention
00:52:39 <VDZ> It'll be one 'release', not one 'visual novel'
00:53:01 <GipFace> We think it's one visual novel
00:53:30 <VDZ> eBay disagrees with you, GipFace :3
00:53:50 <VDZ> Try complaining how you didn't get the latter tale for free when you've bought the first tale
00:54:06 <Multi> [r3111.6] Edit of ef a fairy tale of the two By izmosmolnar Summary: combined release @ http://vndb.org/r3111.6
00:54:14 <izmos> there
00:54:58 <GipFace> People aren't going to figure it out
00:55:12 <LoSs> <GipFace> Bottom line is, the English release of ef is going to be one title, and we'd really like VNDB to reflect that < YES, OUUUU, GOGO NNL, GOGO GIP FACE
00:55:23 <GipFace> First tale is still getting more votes than latter tale at this point in time even though Chapter 5 was the latest release
00:55:23 <LoSs> more piracy, more hate!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111
00:56:03 <VDZ> Somebody kick LoSs.
00:56:10 <DragonSamurai55> First tale is still good, but you know all those votes of 10 werent for Miyako, unless her popularity is a lot higher than publicly voiced I guess
00:56:30 <GipFace> The vote is being split
00:56:37 <LoSs> shut up, vdz
00:56:42 <LoSs> i'm too awesome to be kicked
00:56:46 <GipFace> Once English ef is out, nobody is going to bother to vote twice
00:56:55 <GipFace> Why should they? It's one package
00:57:00 <LoSs> xept people who played it in japanese
00:57:03 <VDZ> GipFace
00:57:04 * LoSs gigles
00:57:06 <VDZ> You made it one package
00:57:14 <VDZ> Originally, it's two different games
00:57:22 <GipFace> Then they can go review it that way on EGS
00:57:33 <LoSs> well of course nnl is much more important than minori
00:57:44 <LoSs> just stop questioning it, VDDZD
00:58:02 <LoSs> less talk, more action!
00:58:17 <Multi> [r3111.7] Edit of ef - a fairy tale of the two By izmosmolnar Summary: missing hyphen @ http://vndb.org/r3111.7
00:58:22 <VDZ> Should we also merge v184 and v235? People who have bought r3724 might want to rate the entire thing they bought
00:58:22 <Multi> [v184] Kizuato @ http://vndb.org/v184
00:58:22 <Multi> [v235] Shizuku @ http://vndb.org/v235
00:58:22 <Multi> [r3724] Kizuato (Standard Edition) @ http://vndb.org/r3724
00:58:29 <GipFace> Well, echoMateria, you've been unusually silent throughout all this
00:58:39 <GipFace> We're trying to present our case in a civil manner
00:59:13 <LoSs> after all, minori are just gaijin-hating nationalists!
00:59:20 <LoSs> all hail nnl!!
00:59:27 <LoSs> all hail gipface!!!
00:59:29 <echoMateria> oh sorry I'm busy with something else atm, anyway as I see it there is no middle way that everyone agrees on this for now
00:59:33 <VDZ> [00:57] <LoSs> after all, minori are just gaijin-hating nationalists!
00:59:38 <VDZ> Actually, I agree with you here for once
01:00:02 <GipFace> So what happens if we make everyone agree?
01:00:03 <VDZ> To be blunt, everybody except you thinks the entries should be separate
01:00:17 <VDZ> If you make everyone agree, nobody will object to it, and they'll be merged
01:00:22 <echoMateria> there is one better way to discuss this with more people actualy
01:00:22 <LoSs> you will reign vndb and english vn community
01:00:23 <VDZ> The problem is only that you can't get everyone to agree
01:00:26 <LoSs> as god
01:00:54 <VDZ> Oh, echoMateria, can you kick LoSs?
01:01:00 <VDZ> Maybe temp ban until GipFace leaves?
01:01:15 <LoSs> I'll just use proxy
01:01:21 <echoMateria> you can make a post on the vndb's Discussion board's and see what all the other users think about this
01:01:58 <echoMateria> http://vndb.org/t/db
01:02:47 <GipFace> I don't believe that is a good idea
01:02:53 <echoMateria> since we can already see what are the opinions of the still awake people here and further discussion isn't leading anywhere
01:02:55 <GipFace> If we listened to the masses, ef would be a patch
01:03:08 <LoSs> yes, who cares about masses
01:03:17 <GipFace> We're asking you out of the goodness of your heart to set a precedent for ef
01:03:17 <LoSs> listen to your inner voice
01:03:22 <LoSs> and do as you like
01:03:25 <VDZ> Except, vndb does listen to the masses
01:03:26 <echoMateria> why don't you just release translation patches like everyone else?
01:03:30 <VDZ> And the masses disagree with you
01:03:39 <echoMateria> now you mention it
01:03:41 <VDZ> Therefore, vndb will not make the change
01:03:49 <GipFace> Was that a serious question, or was that rhetorical?
01:03:51 <LoSs> we would obatin the paradise, if someone will give admin rights to gipface
01:04:03 <LoSs> ah, and make him supervisor of gemot too
01:04:34 <echoMateria> I'm serious yes
01:04:43 <VDZ> echoMateria; they've explained before. Everybody's going to pirate it anyways and the originals are incredibly hard to get
01:04:51 <GipFace> Short answer, because it's acceptable for anime fansubs
01:04:51 <VDZ> Even harder than regular visual novels
01:05:06 <GipFace> We believe there is currently a double standard
01:05:18 <echoMateria> hmm like anime fansubs eh
01:05:42 <GipFace> If there was no double standard, every group would simply release a script file and nothing else
01:05:46 <echoMateria> instead of downloading the raw and sub seperately
01:06:05 <DragonSamurai55> Nobody goes out to kill thora for releasing subbed bluray 1080p rips, for example
01:06:13 <VDZ> GipFace
01:06:26 <VDZ> The same translation patch works for 34256325 rips of the game DVD
01:06:41 <VDZ> The same anime translation only works for 1 out of 3452632 anime rips
01:06:54 <VDZ> Try it with a different one, and the timing is totally off
01:07:20 <GipFace> Our translation only works with our modified Japanese scripts, using that logic
01:07:29 <VDZ> It would be extremely impractical to release anime translations as separate files
01:07:41 <GipFace> We've changed significant portions of the game code to make the localization feasible
01:08:10 <GipFace> What if we had a patch that demanded our modified Japanese scripts?
01:08:14 <VDZ> Yup. And game patches include stuff to change exactly those portions of the game code
01:08:25 <echoMateria> I'm totally against changing a games script, so lets leave that part aside
01:08:28 <VDZ> [01:06] <GipFace> What if we had a patch that demanded our modified Japanese scripts?
01:08:30 <VDZ> Why would you do that?
01:08:50 <GipFace> Because that's what you are implying
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01:09:04 <VDZ> The idea of a patch is that you supply everything that makes the patch work on an original copy of the game
01:09:13 <LoSs> VDZ, the most loyal fan of nnl
01:09:17 <GipFace> Our EN scripts only work on our modded JP scripts
01:09:34 <GipFace> Therefore, because no one owns the modded JP scripts, the standalone takes care of that
01:09:47 <LoSs> well 2nd most loyal fan
01:09:51 <LoSs> right after me
01:09:52 <DragonSamurai55> Just to apply it to the argument, by the way, youre suggesting anime dvds couldnt have patches provided to add subtitles?
01:10:01 <VDZ> GipFace; or you could just include the modded Japanese scripts
01:10:29 <VDZ> DragonSamurai55; it would indeed work for anime DVDs
01:10:37 <VDZ> But fansubs are out earlier than the DVDs the episodes are on
01:10:49 <VDZ> At the time the fansub is released, that method cannot be used yet
01:11:19 <Multi> [t168.22] Reply to Yukizakura - Saki's Ending Discussion Posted in v:Yukizakura By gabezhul @ http://vndb.org/t168.22
01:11:31 <GipFace> But does anyone do it for anime DVDs?
01:11:39 <GipFace> Anyway, we're straying off topic here
01:12:03 <GipFace> We're here to request a merger of the ef entries, not to discuss our rationale behind the standalone
01:12:27 <VDZ> The merger has been unanimously denied.
01:12:34 <GipFace> Are you staff?
01:12:40 <VDZ> No.
01:13:10 <GipFace> Good, so we'll wait for echoMateria or Yorhel to decide, then
01:13:20 <VDZ> echoMateria; please decide.
01:13:32 <VDZ> (Although TBH I think he was rather clear as well)
01:13:53 <echoMateria> well, as Yorhel already mentionmed in his mail, I don't think we'll go with a change like this unless most of our users (the ones that cares) wants it to happen
01:14:20 <echoMateria> that's why I suggested the message boards, though I lost the answer in all the flood why you said that was a bad idea
01:14:38 <VDZ> At the moment, everybody seems to disagree - if you still want to have the two games merged, show us that the majority of the people agree with you
01:15:08 <GipFace> All right
01:15:12 <izmos> yeah creating a discussion thread linking the two games together would be the easiest way to decide it IMO
01:15:22 <GipFace> If you merge the ef entries now, we will guarantee release within the next two weeks
01:15:38 <GipFace> If you do not, you will leave us no choice but to put the project into a state of lockout
01:15:50 <GipFace> Once the project is in lockout, I bet everyone will be on our side
01:16:08 <LoSs> oh gipface
01:16:15 <LoSs> you are so kool
01:16:42 <GipFace> If you want to call our bluff, go right ahead, this is the fastest way to have everyone "agree" with us
01:17:22 <GipFace> DS55 and I have discussed this possibility with the rest of the team and they're fully prepared to go through with it
01:17:36 * DragonSamurai55 nods
01:17:54 <GipFace> So, we'd rather negotiate in a civil manner than have this spilled out into the public
01:17:58 <GipFace> Which is why we're talking to you now
01:18:05 <VDZ> Good thing I, like many other vndb regulars, am not interested in ef anyways
01:18:33 <LoSs> but I'm interested in playing that marvelous game again
01:18:38 <LoSs> after all it's shiny!!
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01:18:52 <echoMateria> ahah
01:18:55 <LoSs> unlike old stinky stuff like yu-no
01:19:05 <LoSs> or sharin no kuni
01:19:19 <LoSs> I WANT TO FEEL THE QUALITY
01:19:49 <echoMateria> threatening a database
01:20:00 <echoMateria> now I've seen everything
01:20:08 <GipFace> echoMateria - So there's the current offer on the table. In return for the hundreds of hours we put into our localization, we're only asking you to make a change that would take all of two minutes
01:20:43 <VDZ> <GipFace> ooh ooh watch out, we're blackmailing you now!
01:21:06 <VDZ> GipFace, let me summarize the opinion of most people in this channel. "We don't care. Go cry in a corner."
01:21:27 <GipFace> We're not blackmailing. echoMateria said he would merge the entries if there was enough support
01:21:29 <LoSs> more like, it's your opinion
01:21:41 <LoSs> I, for once, knows the hacker
01:21:48 <LoSs> I mean I care
01:22:03 <echoMateria> if you want to translate a game, to share the experience with others, you just do it
01:22:47 <echoMateria> coming to a database and making demans on how they feature entries related to it's japanese releases,
01:23:03 <VDZ> "We won't release it until you change it" is simply blackmailing. Let me tell you something about blackmailing: it only works if the threatening 'else'-clause is actually perceived as something unwanted to the victims
01:23:07 <echoMateria> and saying that you will stop the translation otherwise isn't really mature
01:23:13 <VDZ> In other words, if we don't care, it doesn't work
01:23:14 <GipFace> Well, you really haven't given us a very good argument
01:23:22 <VDZ> Maybe you can blackmail the people at the discussion boards, maybe they care
01:23:31 <GipFace> Every example cited does not have an English merged equivalent
01:24:13 <VDZ> That's...because there is no English equivalent yet?
01:24:24 <echoMateria> well I thought your argument made sense in a similar manner to higurashi games etc, but you just lost me with the threats
01:24:32 <VDZ> I don't know, but you can hardly expect us to have an English equivalent if there is none
01:24:59 <GipFace> How is it threatening? If anything, you're threatening to remain on status quo because not everyone agrees
01:25:17 <GipFace> We've come up with a plan to make everyone agree, isn't that what you want?
01:25:30 <VDZ> GipFace, do it. I don't care about ef, but it would be fun to see the fans' reactions.
01:25:35 <LoSs> yes, you must also merge demonbane games
01:25:36 <LoSs> ok?
01:25:49 <LoSs> do it and I release demonbane in april
01:26:36 <LoSs> If you do not, you will leave me no choice but to put the project into a state of lockout
01:27:10 <GipFace> So are we going to have any more discussion on the matter, or is it all?
01:27:38 <LoSs> yes, yes, discussion!
01:27:47 <GipFace> We would love to continue, it's up to you
01:27:59 <GipFace> We don't really want to put the project in a state of lockout
01:28:04 <DragonSamurai55> I know I'm not being too talkative, but yeah, I'm up for more talk
01:28:17 <VDZ> Nope, this is all.
01:28:28 <VDZ> Put your project in your state of lockout
01:28:45 <VDZ> We don't really care
01:28:46 <echoMateria> I recommended using boards, I can't do anything else at this moment
01:29:15 <izmos> just use the discussion board presenting arguments about merging it
01:29:27 <izmos> that'd be the most logical choice to do
01:29:45 <GipFace> We don't like to post on message boards because people impersonate us
01:29:46 <VDZ> [01:26] <SupernaturalDream> <GipFace>But does anyone do it for anime DVDs? <- they used to, until people just started using those scripts to make rips and releasing them
01:29:51 <VDZ> Oh, there you have an answer, GipFace
01:30:05 <tjm> Don't worry, they impersonate you on IRC too.
01:30:17 <echoMateria> how so, if you register your nick?
01:30:35 --- VDZ is now known as GipFace_
01:30:40 --- GipFace_ is now known as G1pFace
01:30:47 <GipFace> We would simply post our arguments on the ef project site and then have a link to the message board thread
01:31:03 --- G1pFace is now known as GippFace
01:31:37 --- GippFace is now known as Gip_Face
01:31:55 <echoMateria> if a user wants a change in vndb he makes a post in the message boards
01:32:08 <echoMateria> unless it is a simple thing that people here agrees
01:32:10 --- Gip_Face is now known as Fap_Gice
01:32:28 <echoMateria> since it's not happening I don't see arguing here going anywhere
01:32:36 --- Fap_Gice is now known as VDZ
01:33:07 <ImmLff> "<VDZ> Good thing I, like many other vndb regulars, am not interested in ef anyways" <-- almost, I'm (for example) slightly interested in ef, but definitely is not interested in nnl's localization;
01:33:07 <ImmLff> so yeah, put it into a lockout, maybe some better translation group will pick it then ^_^
01:34:07 <GipFace> All right. So if we get enough people to agree on the merge, you will do it, yes?
01:35:24 <VDZ> Hmmmmmmno, not as simple as that
01:35:38 <VDZ> gg also got many people to 'agree' on getting Ruitomo translated
01:35:55 <DragonSamurai55> Oh, then what criteria will you find acceptable?
01:36:37 <echoMateria> I can't make simple promises like that, it isn't a matter that I can decide by myself
01:36:41 <VDZ> Well, if most people who actually contribute to vndb agree, then we'll do it. For less harsh criteria, contact Yorhel
01:36:49 <echoMateria> I just informed you of the method to do it
01:37:31 <DragonSamurai55> All righty. Anything to add Gip?
01:37:59 <GipFace> That's ambiguous. Exactly how many people need to agree in that thread for there to be a change?
01:38:39 <LoSs> GipFace, 4000 people
01:38:57 <-- Kanzar (~Kanzar@ishita.kanzar) quits (Ping timeout)
01:38:58 <LoSs> but they must have account at vndb and be awesome
01:39:31 <VDZ> GipFace; sorry, can't give unambiguous criteria. Contact Yorhel if you need numbers
01:39:42 <echoMateria> alright, let me give you the math we use for this matters
01:39:53 <VDZ> But it's not just random people registering an account to make a post there; they need to be actually relevant people
01:40:02 <echoMateria> a user makes a thread, explains his opinion
01:40:08 <VDZ> vndb contributors, and probably vndb voters as well, but again, ask Yorhel
01:40:17 <LoSs> you can just suck yorhel's dick
01:40:17 <echoMateria> others who care about it make posts under it
01:40:25 <LoSs> and he'll give you an approval
01:40:43 <VDZ> LoSs method may work, but you'll need to fly over to the Netherlands to do that.
01:40:49 <VDZ> LoSs's*
01:41:08 <ImmLff> lol
01:41:25 <echoMateria> afterwards mods and yorhel discuss about it and then Yorhel decides what to do if he has an opinion either way
01:41:54 <echoMateria> if he doesn't care either way mods decide with the residents here
01:42:22 <GipFace> So you'd rather decide with people who have admitted that they don't care about the naming convention or the project itself
01:42:29 <LoSs> don't give up, Gip
01:42:36 <GipFace> Rather than the team who put hundreds of hours into localizing it?
01:42:37 <LoSs> I'm always on your side
01:42:49 <LoSs> you should push them harder
01:42:55 <GipFace> You've got to be kidding us
01:43:02 <LoSs> tell them that you won't pick new project
01:43:29 <LoSs> unless they do as you wish
01:43:33 <GipFace> Why would you rather listen to people who don't care about the project?
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01:43:48 <GipFace> We're taking the time to talk to you because we feel very strongly about this
01:44:01 <LoSs> we = ?
01:44:07 <DragonSamurai55> I'm here
01:44:10 <VDZ> [01:40] <GipFace> So you'd rather decide with people who have admitted that they don't care about the naming convention or the project itself
01:44:14 <VDZ> [01:41] <GipFace> Rather than the team who put hundreds of hours into localizing it?
01:44:14 <LoSs> two people
01:44:21 <LoSs> vs vndb userbase
01:44:25 <DragonSamurai55> I'm not as good a talker, but I agree 100% with everything he's been arguing, as does the team
01:44:31 <LoSs> OF COURSE GIPFACE WIN
01:44:41 <VDZ> Yes. We don't care what you do outside of vndb, it doesn't make your opinion any more important for vndb
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01:44:57 <Maou> Actually we'd rather decide with people who care about the db, contributed to teh db and use the db rather than some people who have little to no connection to it, but whatever
01:45:42 <ImmLff> "<GipFace> Why would you rather listen to people who don't care about the project?" <- Yorhel and other mods would rather listen to those who care about vndb
01:46:10 <ImmLff> Maou was little faster
01:46:23 <ImmLff> at answering
01:46:34 <GipFace> The average vndb user is not going to vote twice on a single game
01:46:38 <VDZ> You can ask us to change things about r3111 or p28, as you are an 'authority on the subject', but the actual ef entries need either agreement of vndb contributors/users or minori
01:46:38 <Multi> [r3111] ef - a fairy tale of the two @ http://vndb.org/r3111
01:46:38 <Multi> [p28] No Name Losers @ http://vndb.org/p28
01:46:43 <tjm> The opinions of member of a localising project are no more or less relevant than the opinions of an ordinary user of VNDB. Many people appreciate the work you are doing; indeed, many of the people in this channel most likely appreciate it. But it has no relevance to this discussion.
01:46:48 <GipFace> The statistics clearly show that
01:47:12 <izmos> but many of us actually did vote on both games already
01:47:13 <GipFace> We're trying to approach this from a newcomer's perspective
01:47:29 <izmos> we aren't retarded to know that FIRST TALE must mean the first half of the saga
01:47:41 <GipFace> They will play the game, go on vndb, and then have absolutely no idea what to vote for because "first tale" and "latter tale" are not mentioned at all in our localization
01:48:12 <VDZ> GipFace; votes can be changed later
01:48:27 <Maou> Solution 1:Include a note that it was originally released as two parts, and yours is an unofficial rerelease which contains both releases
01:48:39 <VDZ> If they find out your version also contained the latter tale a half year later, they could go back to the latter tale page and vote for the latter tale as well
01:49:14 <Maou> Solution 2: Trust your users to be able to read the description etc. and figure out on their own that the game they played contained both,a nd thus vote on both the same way (May or may not work, depending on your fanbase)
01:50:13 <izmos> Why don't add a note under the description "that's the first half of the "elf - fairy tale of the two" series?
01:50:28 <VDZ> Anyways, GipFace, you might have realized this already, but trying to convince us directly is useless
01:50:46 <VDZ> Go convince the userbase or something
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01:53:03 <Maou> Also, <GipFace> The statistics clearly show that<-- just don't.
01:53:52 <GipFace> Well, all right then
01:54:11 <GipFace> echoMateria - If you want to open up discussion again, you can contact us at enenel@gmail.com
01:54:25 <LoSs> AND EF IS ON HOLD
01:54:38 <LoSs> EVERYTHING IS YOUR FAULT, #VNDB!
01:54:55 <LoSs> もう、許さないだからね！
01:55:07 <GipFace> Guess we'll try to convince people of our side in the meantime
01:55:12 <GipFace> Take care!
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01:56:05 <tjm> Ah, drama; how I haven't missed ye.
01:56:22 <Maou> Yeah...
01:57:17 <DragonSamurai55> Have a good day, gentlemen. You're welcome into #efproject @ irc.rizon.net if you want reassurance. (PM one of us for the password)
01:57:27 * DragonSamurai55 waves
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01:58:06 --- Maou changes the topic to: ~ VNDB.org ~ Off-topic: #fluffy ~ log: http://blicky.net/multi/ ~ Drama: #/dev/null ~
01:58:27 <LoSs> I want a password!