12:53 <TML> What's up?
12:53 <Evil_Work> Could I maybe get a list of acceptable topics/phrases for me to enter into #phpc?
12:54 <Evil_Work> I got warned for having a legitimate discussion of features of 5.3
12:55 <TML> The topic wasn't the problem, the direction you were taking the conversation in was.
12:55 <TML> There's a happy medium between saying "Yeah, I don't understand closures, and probably never will" and using #phpc as your personal flogging station.
12:55 <TML> You have to realize that IRC channels are full of people who are pathological helpers
12:55 <Evil_Work> Discussing the reason why I think a feature was included is off limits?
12:56 <TML> When you complain that you don't understand <X>, their desire is going to be to help you understand <X>.
12:56 <TML> If you don't intend to actually understand <X> as part of the discussion, it's probably best if you just stay out of it.
12:56 <Evil_Work> I don't see that as the issue here.
12:57 <Evil_Work> the issue is why I think the feature was included in 5.3, not my failure to understand it.
12:57 <TML> No
12:57 <TML> The issue was your failure to understand it, and your discussion of that in #phpc
12:58 <Evil_Work> the discussion involved asking why the feature was necessary, and what advantages it brought, because I had the opinion that it was worthless
12:58 <TML> As one of the people discussing it with Remi and the other ops, I'm telling you: the problem was that you appeared to be headed, once again, down the black-hole of "Evil_Work isn't good enough, smart enough, or <X> enough"
12:58 <TML> I'll show you which are the specific comments we had issues with
12:58 <Evil_Work> That's not where I was going.
12:59 <TML> 11:26 < Evil_Work> Closures were put in 5.3 to make people like me (who didn't even know they existed before) feel stupid.
12:59 <Evil_Work> Where I was going is "These features, that would not be known to a mid-level coder who has only done PHP, have been put into place to assert the dominance of people who had previous knowledge of them."
12:59 <TML> 11:31 < Evil_Work> TML: I can barely maintain what I know now, and now it's getting added to
13:00 <TML> 11:32 < Evil_Work> jbafford: I just hear 'blah blah blah insert charlie brown teacher noise here"
13:01 <TML> That's not why they were added. The PHP Group, as a whole, rejects the base assumption you make that people can't learn new things.
13:01 <Evil_Work> that's not what I'm saying.
13:01 <Evil_Work> I'm saying that until people DO learn about the use of, say, closures, they are at a significant disadvantage.
13:01 <TML> Closures were added to PHP so that people who didn't previously know what closures were could learn what they were and become better, more effective programmers.
13:02 <TML> No one on the PHP group thinks "How can I opress the mid-level coders?"
13:02 <TML> They do sometimes think "How can I elevate mid-level coders to be GREAT coders?"
13:03 <Evil_Work> Then they shouldn't keep moving the target.
13:03 <TML> If the target doesn't move, the coders never improve
13:03 <TML> They stagnate
13:03 <Evil_Work> if the bar keeps going up, then no matter how high you jump, you'll never get there.
13:04 <TML> Knowledge workers are like water - if there's not pressure giving them a reason to keep moving, they stagnate and rot
13:04 <TML> Programmers more so than any other knowledge worker
13:04 <TML> If you ever 'get there', we have failed you as a development team.
13:05 <Evil_Work> by "get there" i mean "competent".
13:05 <TML> You can be competent without using closures
13:05 <TML> The language should always be a few steps ahead of what you need in your professional development.
13:05 <Evil_Work> And this isn't a new array manipulation function or a change to get_user_func() or something like that.
13:05 <Evil_Work> These are entirely new concepts.
13:05 <TML> Yes. That's precisely the point.
13:05 <Evil_Work> Stuff that was intended to be in 6.
13:05 <TML> Introducing new concepts.
13:06 <TML> This was only 'intended to be in 6' when there wasn't supposed to be a 5.3
13:06 <Evil_Work> They're awfully big changes to put in a minor revision.
13:06 <TML> As soon as we backed off the '6.0 is next version after 5.2' position, a lot of 6 stuff moved backwards into 5.3
13:08 <TML> This is all far from the original point, which is that due to historical precedent, you need to be more careful than other people about the tone of discussion you use in #phpc - if you begin to take a negative tack, it's likely that you're going to get a gentle prod from one of the ops.
13:09 <Evil_Work> Which is why I leave when I get that warning. Clearly I can't figure out where the line is myself, as it keeps moving around.
13:09 <Evil_Work> So I leave and take it out of the equation.
13:10 <TML> Generally, I will be the very LAST person to talk to you directly about it, because you think so foreign to me that it's incredibly difficult - nearly impossible - for me to have a discussion with you without getting upset at the way you treat yourself.
13:10 <TML> Instead, I will ask one of the other ops to look in on the conversation and take steps if they feel it's appropriate
13:10 <Evil_Work> Maybe I see the changes in 5.3 as too radical. Maybe I think there shouldn't even have BEEN a 5.3. Maybe I see the situation as negative.
13:11 <Evil_Work> Are my opinions on the situation invalid as a result?
13:11 <TML> If you see a situation as negative, your safest bet is to not discuss it in #phpc. If you choose to discuss it there, be aware that the ops are going to be hyper-sensitive to the manner you use to express yourself.
13:11 <TML> No, but not all valid topics are welcome in #phpc
13:12 <Evil_Work> Which brings me back to my original question: Can someone tell me what I can and can't talk about?
13:13 <Evil_Work> Because you're asking me to change my entire perspective on reality, and I can't understand what's ok and what isn't.
13:13 <TML> I can't think of any way we could ever do that, because we can't possibly imagine every topic you might twist into an excuse for public self-flagellation.
13:13 <Evil_Work> I can do that with *any* topic. Should I just stop saying anything at all?
13:14 <TML> If that's what you're in #phpc for, then perhaps it's best if you stayed out of #phpc. I don't know.
13:14 <Evil_Work> that's not what i'm in there for.
13:14 <Evil_Work> and you don't want to hear why i *am* in there.
13:15 <TML> Indeed, I don't much really care why you're in there. I only care what you do while you are.
13:16 <Evil_Work> That's a 'stop talking, then', right?
13:16 <TML> If you want to be in #phpc, it's fine with me. You're absolutely welcome there. Just don't perform your self-flagellations there.
13:16 <Evil_Work> dude
13:16 <Evil_Work> that's my *entire existence*.
13:16 <Evil_Work> I've honed self-flaggelation to a fine art, and a way of living.
13:16 <TML> If that's the only type of communication you're capable of, then perhaps it's best if you just stay away.
13:17 <Evil_Work> I can't do that.
13:17 <TML> The channel at-large has no tolerance for it.
13:18 <TML> Look, Otto, I'm not going to argue this with you. The answer to your question of what you can't say in #phpc is "Anything anyone might describe as 'self-flagellations', 'self-debasement', or 'complaining'."
13:18 <TML> Everything else is fine.
13:18 <Evil_Work> Anyone can describe anything I say as any of those three.
13:19 <Evil_Work> I'm asking for some boundaries that I can understand. If that boundary is 'don't ever say anything', then that's valid.
13:19 <TML> What do you not understand about that boundary?
13:20 <Evil_Work> If that's what we're talking about, then fine.
13:20 <TML> If everything you ever say is always going to be one of those, you have two options: 1) Change; 2) Don't be in #phpc.
13:22 <Evil_Work> Am I misunderstanding that?
13:23 <Evil_Work> I'm not tring to put the burden on anyone.
13:23 <Evil_Work> I'm asking if I misunderstood what you said.
13:23 <TML> If you understood those two options as asking you to leave, you misunderstood.
13:24 <TML> If I thought it would do any good, I'd PLEAD with you to take option #1.
13:24 <Evil_Work> There is one option there. That's all I'll say about that, because you've made clear you don't want to hear the kind of reasoning I'd offer.
13:24 <TML> If I had the money, I'd PAY you to do so.
13:25 <Evil_Work> I've spent most of my adult life trying to take option #1. It's not working out.
13:25 <TML> You've certainly had conversations in #phpc that didn't contain self-flagellations.
13:25 <TML> Look back on those.
13:25 <TML> Only let that side of yourself out in #phpc
13:26 <Evil_Work> It's not like I can flip a switch.
13:28 <TML> It's clear I'm the wrong person to have this conversation with you. I refuse to accept your defeatism as an attempt at sincere communication, and have no interest in the conversation if you're not going to be sincere. One of the other ops will have to discuss this with you.
13:28 <Evil_Work> That's fine.
13:29 <TML> I have put this conversation up on an encrypted pastebin and shared it with the other ops. I can't promise when someone will see fit to pick up the mantle.
13:29 <Evil_Work> Remi_Woler and lig are out
13:29 <Evil_Work> they're both ignoring me at this point
13:29 <TML> lig is away from her client at the moment
13:30 <TML> Remi and I have been discussing it, him trying to help me find a way to communicate with you
13:30 <Evil_Work> Since 10:30 this morning.
13:30 <TML> It's obviously a miserable failure
13:30 <Evil_Work> Because I can't explain my reasoning to you.
13:30 <TML> lig last responded to me at 10:42am
13:31 <Evil_Work> It would have been nice had you told me you were putting this conversation in a public place before you did.
13:31 <TML> It's not public, it's encrypted.
13:32 <Evil_Work> There's still a risk.
13:32 <Evil_Work> You should have asked me.
13:32 <TML> Any corrective conversation by any op of ##PHP or #phpc with any user is generally shared with all of the ops so that we can deliver a consistent message.
13:32 <TML> I don't feel that should be news to anyone.
13:33 <TML> For example, if I've incorrectly represented #phpc here, the other ops will tell me
13:33 <Evil_Work> I'm not surprised by that. However, had I known that the precise text of this conversation would be posted for others to see, then this would have been a different conversation.
13:33 <TML> They cannot do so if I don't share with them the conversation.
13:33 <Evil_Work> I'm simply saying that I wasn't aware of that specific practice.
13:34 <TML> Well, I'm sorry that you weren't aware of that. For future reference, every IRC channel I'm a member of (#debian, #ubuntu, #pylons, etc.) uses the same practice.
13:34 <Evil_Work> Noted.