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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 02:03:37 2009
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02:04 <duane#7> :-)
02:04 <duane#7> there are some different ppl from the ones in #Library
that come in here
02:04 <catsup> i don't like to have to divide in my own mind the
activities of talking on topic and off topic
02:05 <catsup> i guess it's alright if the conversation is decided
offtopic
02:06 <duane#7> it is only as a matter of convenience that the #library
is mostly reserved--though we go off topic all the time--last week I
had to scroll for a good 20 minutes just to 'catch up'
02:06 <catsup> but an on-topic discussion subjected to the topic police
becomes not fun and also brings out the issue of who has the op-power
to decide what is topical
02:07 <catsup> 'decidedly'
02:07 <catsup> not a great choice of adjective now that i see it
emphasized :|
02:09 <catsup> once i had the idea to print this:
http://jerkface.net/responsibilization
02:09 <catsup> i was going to put it on one side of a page, and put
another word definition on the other side
02:11 <duane#7> jerkface. nice
02:11 <catsup> =D
02:11 <duane#7> i skimmed it -- i am trying to finish my way through
The Accursed Share
02:11 <catsup> it's also at http://childrenofmay.org/responsibilization
02:11 <catsup> for respectability :p
02:12 <duane#7> :-)
02:12 <catsup> it's definitely not something that can be skimmed
02:13 <catsup> but anyway if you encountered 'responsibilization' in
foucault, it's just supposed to define it in simple terms
02:14 <catsup> make it accessible
02:14 <duane#7> i've read lots of foucault but i dont recall that term
02:15 <duane#7> Maybe I 'forgot foucault'
02:16 <catsup> what did you read
02:16 <catsup> did you read the 'power' anthology?
02:16 <catsup> 'essential foucault vol. 3'
02:16 <duane#7> .. what publisher?
02:16 <duane#7> no
02:16 <catsup> duno
02:17 <catsup> http://www.biblio.com/books/61861034.html
02:17 <duane#7> I read mad & civ, d&p, history of sexuality, .. that new
book on truth from autonomedia or semiotext .. and, my favorite of his,
the archaeology of knowledge
02:17 <duane#7> maybe otehrs, but i cant recall right now
02:17 <duane#7> ah, i've seen this book
02:17 <duane#7> TOC somewhere?
02:18 <duane#7> actually nm. i honestly couldn't read any more foucault
if I was forced to by threat of castration
02:18 <catsup> why not
02:18 <duane#7> i'm convinced he was a mole
02:19 <duane#7> perfecting structuralism
02:19 <catsup> lol what
02:19 <duane#7> one has only to read his methodological work, The arch
of knowledge to see how his work mirrors goffman's microstructuralism
02:20 <catsup> http://jerkface.net/who-is-foucault%3f.html
02:21 <duane#7> sorry. I read the ending alone "The philosophers have
only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change
it." and it retroactively contaminated the rest of the article for me :-P
02:21 <catsup> um ok
02:21 <duane#7> lol I'm playing :-P
02:21 <catsup> well you didn't read it through
02:22 <duane#7> I have too many pages demanding my attention already
.. one only has time for so many words in a day
02:22 <catsup> sure you said that
02:23 <catsup> but i think you missed the point of archaeology of
knowledge
02:24 <duane#7> perhaps, what did i miss?
02:24 <catsup> you don't have time for it :p
02:25 <catsup> the answer is in the link, anyway
02:25 <catsup> brb
02:26 <duane#7> I do not see a reference in your link to the archeological
method, only to genealogical which constitutes a difference in his
lineage of thought
02:26 <duane#7> ok
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 02:31:26 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 02:33:50 2009
02:33 <duane#7> Anyway, it is beyond clear to me that the enonce (the
statement) in Foucault's work (indeed his magnum opus on his methodology
which grounds his life's work) takes the formation on the basis of what
he calls "rules of formation"; these rules provide the structure for
the grounds of power and discourse. The subject is trapped within the
omnipresence of these grammatical rules. Deleuze, on the other hand,
takes Foucault completely outside of his own structuralism.
02:34 <duane#7> Previous structuralists had only trapped the subject
within the web of the certain limited forms. Foucault took it further
and said: no wait, there is even less freedom than you think.
02:34 <catsup> magnum opus!
02:36 <duane#7> If you are at all familiar with Goffman who, in everyday
life was just as much an oddball as Foucault, you will know that people
often mistake him, as well, with some sort of free-willed microsociologist
when, in fact, he is the structuralist beyond all others in sociological
literature.
02:36 <duane#7> His writing was a bit like a seinfeld or a 'curb your
enthusiasm' episode. Documenting the most intimate of everyday behaviors
within the language of structure
02:37 <catsup> why do you think that methodology ground's foucault's
life work
02:37 <catsup> did you read the link?
02:37 <duane#7> these are the characters that appear to so many as the
forefathers of a radical generation when they were the ones who sold
us out
02:37 <duane#7> because foucault himself said that it did, and i trust
him to tell the truth about his intentions
02:38 <duane#7> yes i read the link
02:38 <catsup> he didn't say that :p
02:38 <catsup> and it can't be taken seriously even if so
02:39 <duane#7> sure, check page 205 of the Tavistock Publications
version of the book
02:39 <duane#7> there are other references, its the only i am willing
to find right now
02:39 <catsup> you misunderstand me
02:39 <catsup> you are talking about method, i am talking about purpose
02:40 <duane#7> I think it can be taken seriously. I think that he was
doing so mcuh writing about things that he wanted to reflect on what
the fuck he was actually doing it for, what moved him to do it
02:40 -!- marco#2 [xoceb@cocos.suki.silc] has joined chat
02:40 <duane#7> polo!
02:40 <marco#2> goood morning
02:40 <duane#7> I have no doubt that his purpose in writing it was to
guide a bunch of little-foucauldians to take up his church
02:41 <duane#7> but that's a hunch. I am not guided by purpose,
only faith. that is my faith
02:41 <catsup> you want to understand the work outside of its political
context
02:41 <duane#7> I am aware of the political context of the work --
it was after so many more radical, anti-structuralist, writings had
already been on display
02:42 <duane#7> early 70s .. 69.
02:42 <catsup> Foucault: The university stands for the institutional
apparatus through which society ensures its uneventful reproduction,
at the least cost to itself. The disorder within institutions of higher
learning, their imminent demise (whether real or apparent), does not
extend to the society's will for conservation, identity, and repetition.
02:42 <catsup> You are asking what can be done to disrupt the system's
cycle of social reproduction; and it isn't enough to suppress or overturn
the university. Other forms of repression must also be attacked.
02:44 <duane#7> yes. power is everywhere, resistance must be everywhere.
the tactical route.
02:44 <duane#7> but this contradicts his entire corpus. he is not
interested in resistance, he is interested in how we can not resist.
02:45 <catsup> that's silly
02:45 <duane#7> this was the force behind the arch of knowledge and the
bit of methodological work he did in his sexuality book
02:45 <duane#7> i'm sorry, this much is completely clear to me and anybody
who has read foucault. I can not understand how it could be denied
02:46 <catsup> maybe it's reading foucault that causes the problem :p
02:46 <catsup> reading it along with so many other books sitting next
to his
02:46 <catsup> comparing them to each other
02:46 <catsup> in the context of a bookshelf
02:47 <duane#7> perhaps, but if one wants to defend foucaults intentions
one would be turning ones back to his very clear statement about the
author-function in the arch of knowledge
02:47 <duane#7> reading foucault is the problem. we can agree on that
much :-)
02:48 <catsup> did you ever read whatever it was where foucault says
that power does not exist when a person is in chains
02:48 <catsup> that would be a good text for you to read
02:48 <catsup> if not
02:49 <catsup> what is said about the author function is not relevant
02:49 <duane#7> it is if we are debating the truth of foucault
02:49 <catsup> what kind of thing to debate is that
02:50 <catsup> haha
02:50 <duane#7> instead of the valuable of his insight. and no, i dont
recognize that quote .. sounds interesting though
02:50 <duane#7> i will look at those marginal thoughts
02:50 <catsup> haha marginal
02:50 <duane#7> but I will consider them only that.
02:51 <catsup> the order of things and that other crap is what they teach
in the universities exactly because it's the least politically relevant
02:51 <duane#7> what other books did he write?
02:51 <duane#7> perhaps he only wrote his really good stuff in some
short essays and interviews
02:51 <catsup> um
02:51 <catsup> surely you've read a list
02:53 <catsup> did you ever read governmentality?
02:53 <catsup> security, territory, & population?
02:53 <catsup> those were lectures
02:54 <duane#7> those are not books he wrote
02:54 <catsup> i know
02:54 <duane#7> exactly my point, why are there two faces -- was he
trying to deceive the book reading population?
02:54 <duane#7> because I do see your point
02:54 <catsup> no
02:54 <duane#7> (and i have read governmentality, now that you mention
it.. and I remember it being -very- different than other works)
02:55 <catsup> i almost want to tell you to read that link again
02:55 <catsup> it's the order of things and the archaeology of knowledge
that are different
02:55 <duane#7> ok. i will
02:55 <duane#7> brb
02:58 <duane#7> ok, read it. I see your point, particularly about the
revolt statement
02:59 <duane#7> however, and I am not one for 'wholes', if one does take
his work in 'whole', ignoring his refutation of the author-function,
one would clearly see that the common theme is a very microstructuralist
one. There are times, however, where he jumps off the page and it is
interesting that these are the marginal themes that others reading him
decide to pick up. The reflection, then, turns out as a matter of a
consciousness far superior to Foucault and yet also limited by him.
03:00 <duane#7> you, one so interested in coherency, lineages, wholes,
and canons, surely can not disagree with this assessment.
03:01 <duane#7> perhaps we have exchanged roles
03:01 <duane#7> let's pick this up again later. .. I have to say,
I really enjoyed thinking about this. thank you
03:05 <catsup> i looked away bc i'm talking in #Library
03:05 <catsup> and i'm still looking away but bbl
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 03:10:26 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 03:32:07 2009
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03:32 <catsup> why do the nicks have numbers after them?
03:32 <catsup> i guess i could just read about silc
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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 03:55:26 2009
03:55 <catsup> duane#7: are you around?
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 04:00:26 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 04:00:59 2009
04:00 <duane#7> hey
04:01 <duane#7> ya
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 04:06:26 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 04:22:40 2009
04:22 <duane#7> aragorn, marco, catsup: do any of you by chance know
what a replacement carburetor would cost for a small 80cc scooter?
04:22 <duane#7> estimate. I have no knowledge of these things whatsoever,
and google is not helping me
04:26 <duane#7> nm, i found some
04:28 <marco#2> no idea
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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 06:55:12 2009
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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 09:35:03 2009
09:35 -!- rocinante#5 [xozen@rodeg.seny.silc] has joined chat
09:35 <rocinante#5> good morning
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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 10:16:34 2009
10:16 <aragorn#2> morning
10:21 -!- marco#2 [xomik@kipok.kaba.silc] has joined chat
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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 10:46:18 2009
10:46 <aragorn#2>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/06/04/international/i070851D83.DTL&tsp=1
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 10:51:26 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 11:09:36 2009
11:09 -!- ZeroCool [xeciz@topym.zasu.silc] has joined chat
11:09 <ZeroCool> http://hackbloc.org/etc/zine/7/htz-7-for_print.pdf
11:09 <ZeroCool> http://hackbloc.org/etc/zine/7/htz-7-for_print.pdf
11:09 <ZeroCool> http://hackbloc.org/etc/zine/7/htz-7-for_print.pdf
11:10 <aragorn#2> spammer!
11:11 <aragorn#2> are you printing copies?
11:14 <ZeroCool> not yet
11:15 <ZeroCool> some people up north are
11:15 <ZeroCool> do you have a copier hookup?
11:15 <aragorn#2> nope
11:15 <aragorn#2> how far up north?
11:15 <ZeroCool> olympia
11:16 <ZeroCool> and portland
11:16 <aragorn#2> k. I was going to vol to bring some to portland.
11:16 <aragorn#2> obviously not necessary
11:19 <ZeroCool> vol?
11:20 <aragorn#2> volunteer
11:20 <aragorn#2> I have no time for complete words
11:20 <aragorn#2> this is the future!
11:20 <ZeroCool> iswym
11:25 <rocinante#5> iswym?
11:25 <rocinante#5> icas :)
11:25 <rocinante#5> (im cool as shite)
11:25 <rocinante#5> not to brag or anything
11:27 <rocinante#5> iotbabrs
11:27 <rocinante#5> its okay to be a bit ridiculous sometimes
11:27 <rocinante#5> ;)
11:31 <catsup> rocinante#5: why don't you say that here
11:32 <rocinante#5> <font size="3">library is a working channel catsup,
we all have an urge sometimes to say stuff here, but please keep it in
the regular chat</font>
11:32 <rocinante#5> is that better?
11:32 <catsup> well no
11:32 <catsup> it's still in the other channel
11:33 <rocinante#5> youre funny
11:33 <aragorn#2> it is hurting my eyes!
11:33 <catsup> aragorn#2: your client renders that font tag?
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11:34 <aragorn#2> y. I use irssi
11:40 <catsup> god there is just so much wrong with this paper
11:40 <catsup> i don't know why i keep reading
11:41 <rocinante#5> what do you think is wrong?
11:41 <aragorn#2> what paper is that?
11:41 <rocinante#5> catsup where are you from if you dont mind me asking?
11:42 <catsup> connecticut
11:42 <catsup>
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/anarchism-or-revolutionary-movement-twenty-first-century
this paper
11:43 <rocinante#5> oh cool, how is connecticut?
11:43 <catsup> i wouldn't know
11:43 <rocinante#5> graeber is a controversial dude it seems
11:43 <catsup> i don't have much more access to it than you
11:43 <catsup> i can tell you more about the internet
11:44 <rocinante#5> why is that?
11:44 <catsup> lol because i am telematic man
11:44 <rocinante#5> what is telematic?
11:46 <catsup> i just mean my main connection with the world outside my
body is through the computer
11:47 <rocinante#5> oh, that sounds kind of sad...
11:47 <catsup> indeed it is quite sad
11:47 <rocinante#5> im sure the weather in connecticut is getting warmer,
maybe you should go outside more?
11:48 -!- leona#4 [xedaz@secat.nedu.silc] has joined chat
11:49 <ZeroCool> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ
11:49 <catsup> physical space does not offer to me the opportunities
for action or socialization that cyberspace does, though of course it
is more scenic
11:50 <catsup> :p
11:53 <rocinante#5> computers make me sick after a while... i need
real lifel
11:53 <aragorn#2> I have never been a big computer person. I did it for
the $
11:54 <aragorn#2> I'm really glad I was an adult when the Internet really
started to blossom.
11:56 <catsup> hell of a lot better than tv though
11:57 <aragorn#2> it can be but not necessarily
11:57 <aragorn#2> plenty of ways to do the Internet passively
11:58 <aragorn#2> .flv has shown the way
11:59 <leona#4> what are people reading?
12:00 <catsup> same crap
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 12:06:26 2009
--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 12:07:23 2009
12:07 <leona#4> sorry. that was a half-assed attempt to change the
subject in my brain
12:07 <leona#4> so disregard, everyone! ;)
12:09 <catsup> lol @ 'Still, there are a lot of details still to be
filled in: what are the anarchist's full sets of positive institutional
alternatives to contemporary legislatures, courts, police, and diverse
executive agencies?'
12:10 <aragorn#2> where is that from?
12:10 -!- aragorn#2 changed the topic of chat to: there are a lot of
details still to be filled in!
12:10 <catsup> same shit heh
12:11 <catsup>
http://theanarchistlibrary.org/anarchism-or-revolutionary-movement-twenty-first-century
12:12 <aragorn#2> ah. they have a vision.
12:12 <aragorn#2> meet the new vision, same as the old one
12:13 <catsup> "the Crimethinc Collective, the greatest propagandists
of contemporary American anarchism"
12:13 <aragorn#2> isnt that true?
12:14 <catsup> um
12:14 <catsup> what about FC? ;)
12:19 <rocinante#5> what is FC?
12:19 <catsup>
http://en.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=Industrial_Society_and_Its_Future&oldid=547096
12:20 <aragorn#2> friends of chomsky
12:20 <aragorn#2> FC? really?
12:20 <aragorn#2> FC isn't an @
12:20 <aragorn#2> never claimed to be
12:20 <catsup> wrong FC aragorn#2
12:21 <catsup> i mean ted kaczynski
12:21 <aragorn#2> so do I
12:21 <aragorn#2> I was joking w/ the first one
12:21 <catsup> oh ok
12:22 <aragorn#2> It's actually a reference to an old @ newspaper called
Alphabet threat
12:22 <catsup> 215. The anarchist[34] too seeks power, but he seeks it on
an individual or small-group basis; he wants individuals and small groups
to be able to control the circumstances of their own lives. He opposes
technology because it makes small groups dependent on large organizations.
12:22 <catsup> [34] This statement refers to our particular brand
of anarchism. A wide variety of social attitudes have been called
"anarchist," and it may be that many who consider themselves anarchists
would not accept our statement of paragraph 215. It should be noted,
by the way, that there is a nonviolent anarchist movement whose members
probably would not accept FC as anarchist and certainly would not approve
of FC's violent methods.
12:23 <aragorn#2> his use of @ is blank here. he could be saying mustard,
or social-democrat
12:23 <aragorn#2> or libertarian...
12:24 <aragorn#2> he wants individuals and small groups to be able to
control the circumstances of their own lives... pretty much describes
everybody
12:24 <aragorn#2> muslims, xtians, republicans, and (sadly) not very
many @
12:26 <catsup> use is blank?
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12:28 <catsup> anyway FC >> crimethinc for sure
12:28 <aragorn#2> blank ie variable
12:28 <aragorn#2> nope. I strongly disagree
12:28 <aragorn#2> he wrote ONE thing. 10 years ago
12:28 <aragorn#2> CT has put out 100,000 copies of fighting for our life
12:28 <catsup> he wrote a few other things
12:28 <aragorn#2> One that anyone has heard of
12:29 <catsup> published in the washington post
12:29 <catsup> lived from the land
12:29 <aragorn#2> once. for one day and NOT LINKED TO @
12:29 <aragorn#2> linked to terrorism
12:29 <aragorn#2> even if he has a tenous connection
12:30 <catsup> eh?
12:30 <catsup> i don't think he was considered a terrorist
12:30 <catsup> by the media
12:30 <catsup> he was a serial killer
12:30 <aragorn#2> ok
12:31 <catsup> of course terrorist what he'd be in the media today
(and also more accurate)
12:31 <catsup> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hit_Where_It_Hurts <--
take a look
12:32 <aragorn#2> I am quite familiar with TK
12:33 <catsup> hm
12:33 <catsup> why did you said <aragorn#2> FC isn't an @ <aragorn#2>
never claimed to be
12:34 <aragorn#2> This is due to correspondance I am privy to in the
past 5 years
12:34 <rocinante#5> okay im taking a break, to go work outside.... be
back later.
12:34 <aragorn#2> He doesn't actually "own up" to writing the original
article btw
12:35 <catsup> yeah sure
12:35 <catsup> FC wrote the article
12:36 <catsup> anyway the article, besides claiming to be written by an
anarchist group, advocates an anarchist revolution
12:37 <aragorn#2> good for it
12:39 <aragorn#2> Your argument is interesting. I disagree with it but
it is worth some thought.
12:39 <catsup> eh?
12:39 <catsup> what argument
12:39 <leona#4> lol. there goes aragorn! again
12:40 <aragorn#2> that FC is the greatest prop of contemp @
12:40 <catsup> oh
12:40 <catsup> i was just kidding about that
12:40 <catsup> hence the smiley
12:40 <catsup> but FC >> crimethinc 4srs
12:40 <aragorn#2> meaning you agree with FC more than CT?
12:41 <catsup> no that's not what i mean
12:42 <leona#4> so what *do* you mean?
12:47 <catsup> crimethinc never taught me a thing
12:49 <leona#4> what relationship are you implying between fc and ct?
12:50 <catsup> >> stands for "much greater than"
12:50 <aragorn#2> this topic started becaseu we were talking about
propaganda and he said FC>>CT
12:50 <leona#4> yes, i know what the symbols mean. your use of it is
my query
12:51 <leona#4> sorry
12:51 <leona#4> got it
12:51 <aragorn#2> how old were you when you found FC vs CT?
12:51 <aragorn#2> are you saying young >> old cuz you learn more when
you are young?
12:51 <leona#4> or at least chronology
12:52 <catsup> haha i am not sure that i do learn more when i am young
12:52 <aragorn#2> re: texts?
12:52 <leona#4> my brain is melting. lter
12:52 -!- leona#4 [xedaz@secat.nedu.silc] has left chat [leona#4]
12:53 <catsup> but no i don't mean that crimethinc is familiar
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--- Log opened Thu Jun 04 12:59:56 2009
12:59 <catsup> crimethinc opposes work
13:01 <catsup> in a way that seems to suggest the reason work exists is
that people believe in it
13:01 <aragorn#2> they did not create this idea
13:02 <aragorn#2> it has a long tradition in political discourse
13:02 <catsup> the causal process is reversed
13:02 <catsup> in their assumption
13:04 <catsup> the text becomes a sort of utopian fantasy at best, a
moralizing victim-blaming at worse, in any case the fact of power and
the means by which wage labor is enforced have no place whatever in
their texts as far as i have seen
13:04 <aragorn#2> how about the reason that people continue to work is
because they belive in it
13:04 <catsup> huh?
13:04 <aragorn#2> their project is to avoid work as a way to free the
individual
13:04 <aragorn#2> no?
13:05 <catsup> i'm stunned
13:05 <catsup> are you make this assertion: "the reason that people
continue to work is because they belive in it
13:05 <catsup> making
13:05 <catsup> ?
13:05 <aragorn#2> that is CT's assertion that I am restating, yes.
13:05 <catsup> oh ok
13:06 <catsup> well if you are not asserting it i am not stunned :p
13:06 <aragorn#2> I am not a foucaultian. I believe there is power &
violence ;-)
13:06 <catsup> their project seems to be to sell a sort of utopian hope
without basis in the form of glossy advertising
13:07 <catsup> um
13:07 <catsup> 'I am not a foucaultian' <-- duno what you mean there
13:07 <aragorn#2> referring to your discussion w/ duane
13:08 <catsup> well but i still don't know
13:09 <aragorn#2> I do not believe that power is everywhere equal
13:09 <aragorn#2> that we are all guilty and shared participants in power
13:09 <catsup> anyway the chief basis for enforcement of work on the
population is eviction
13:09 <catsup> oh well neither does foucault
13:09 <aragorn#2> and CT resolve that issue by not paying rent...
13:10 <catsup> lol
13:10 <catsup> no eviction is what causes the problem of eviction
13:10 <catsup> ack
13:10 <catsup> no, not paying rent is what causes the problem of eviction
13:10 <catsup> it is not the resolution to the problem!
13:10 <aragorn#2> CT is not a revolutionary program (as far as it
goes). it is a program for living.
13:11 <catsup> i don't see a program for living there
13:11 <catsup> what, sell books?
13:11 <catsup> be petite-bourgeois?
13:11 <catsup> sounds nice, everybody wants that, own your own business,
american dream
13:12 <catsup> not available though except in dreams
13:12 <aragorn#2> except for the 100's of ppl who are living that way
inspired by CT
13:12 <catsup> lol
13:13 <catsup> http://www.paulgraham.com/
13:13 <aragorn#2> are you a professional software developer?
13:13 <catsup> no
13:13 <aragorn#2> you must be
13:14 <catsup> why?
13:14 <aragorn#2> pg
13:14 <catsup> anyway, paul graham also inspires youths to start their
own companies
13:15 <aragorn#2> and ycombinator exists
13:15 <catsup> actually there's a real similarity there, i mean there
is even a critique of work there
13:15 <aragorn#2> sure
13:15 <aragorn#2> I don't disagree that this resonates with an american
dream
13:16 <aragorn#2> the founders of CT have a randian background
13:16 <catsup> graham doesn't maintain the pretense of abolishing
privilege through acquiring it
13:16 <aragorn#2> I don't think CT do either
13:17 <aragorn#2> but who cares, I know and you know that they are
13:17 <catsup> eh?
13:17 <aragorn#2> ppl are poor judges of themselves a lot of the time
13:17 <catsup> they are?
13:18 <catsup> the latter clause, i guess
13:19 <catsup> foucault does not say that everyone has power, foucault
says that power is everywhere, structuring the field of the possible,
but also that the 'weak term', the dominated in power-relations, structure
the field of the possible for the dominating class
13:19 <catsup> 'weak term in the equation', i shouldn't have even used
that phrase. anyway
13:20 <aragorn#2> I chat to chat, not to be precise
13:20 <aragorn#2> but good for you
13:20 <catsup> eh
13:20 <catsup> i don't want you to have the wrong idea about foucault
13:20 <catsup> the phrase about power being everywhere
13:20 <aragorn#2> I don't
13:21 <catsup> http://jerkface.net/the-king
13:21 <catsup> actually have the relevant passage
13:21 <catsup> i typed that in by hand!
13:22 <aragorn#2> crazy
13:22 <catsup> yeah maybe
13:22 <catsup> most people aren't even capable of reading it
13:23 <catsup> let alone willing
13:23 <aragorn#2> I have only skimmed hos but read his earlier work.
13:25 <catsup> did you read governmentality
13:26 <catsup> i haven't found a digital
13:27 <aragorn#2> no
13:27 <catsup> that would be worth typing
13:27 <catsup> not of course that i have to
13:28 <catsup> but if i did -- it would be worth it -- not crazy, i think
13:32 <catsup> what do you think about trying to make this sort of
material accessible?
13:32 <aragorn#2> I think foucault is fine but mostly of interest to
academics
13:33 <catsup> only academics can understand foucault
13:34 <catsup> i mean making it accessible, like, inserting concrete
examples, simpler language, etc.
13:34 <aragorn#2> rewriting foucault would be a useful project
13:34 <catsup> useful how?
13:35 <catsup> i mean what do you imagine would be the use
13:35 <aragorn#2> to having his ideas be discussed/used outside of
the academy
13:36 <catsup> well i don't think that's useful
13:37 <catsup> i mean imagine a bunch of people talking about foucault
in a book club or something
13:37 <catsup> obviously pointless
13:38 <aragorn#2> disagree strongly
13:38 <aragorn#2> why do you think "making it accessible" would be useful?
13:39 <catsup> i was just asking you if you tohught it would be
13:40 <catsup> i personally couldn't do anything with it
13:40 <catsup> i mean, i could rewrite the text, but i could do nothing
with the resulting text
13:40 <catsup> but, could anybody do anything with it?
13:40 <catsup> that is what i wonder
13:41 <aragorn#2> I don't think a little rewrite would be useful. I
think the idea of a total tear down and rebuild could be useful.
13:41 <aragorn#2> hacking philosophy makes hack philosophers :-)
13:43 <catsup> eh
13:44 <catsup> Just as the network of power relations ends by forming
a dense web that passes through apparatuses and institutions, without
being exactly localized in them, so too the swarm of points of resistance
traverses social stratifications and individual unities.
13:44 <catsup> And it is doubtless the strategic codification of these
points of resistance that makes a revolution possible, somewhat similar
to the way in which the state relies on the institutional integration
of power relationships.
13:44 <catsup> ok
13:44 <catsup> out of context there is no meaning here, but you can
at least tell that here foucault is explaining what makes a revolution
possible
13:45 <catsup> suppose for the sake of argument foucault is quite correct,
that he has said something quite enlightening about what makes revolution
possible, and how we should conceive of power if we are to understand
revolution
13:46 <catsup> suppose also that that text can be transformed in such a
way as to make it possible to transfer that knowledge into more brains
than are currently capable of receiving it
13:46 <catsup> the question is, into which brains could the knowledge
be transferred, if any, in order to make some use of that knowledge?
13:47 <aragorn#2> I am not a social engineer. I do not predict the affect
of the ground on a seed or visa versa.
13:48 <aragorn#2> so i don't know the answer to your question
13:48 <aragorn#2> but I eat seeds
13:48 <aragorn#2> and have enjoyed them in the past
13:48 <aragorn#2> some have sprouted, others have been shat
13:50 <catsup> really?
13:50 <catsup> i mean don't you know people?
13:50 <aragorn#2> not like that
13:50 <catsup> not like what?
13:50 <aragorn#2> to predict them
13:50 <catsup> erm
13:51 <catsup> predict them??
13:51 <aragorn#2> "into which brains could the knowledge be
transferred..." == prediction
13:51 <catsup> i'm not asking for any sort of prediction
13:52 <catsup> i don't know
13:52 <catsup> network connectivity you know
13:54 <catsup> have you got it?
13:55 <aragorn#2> ?
13:55 <aragorn#2> I guess not
13:55 <aragorn#2> Are you related network connectivity to people?
13:56 <catsup> huh?
13:58 <aragorn#2> ok. I have to go to a meeting (I am at work). bbiab
--- Log closed Thu Jun 04 14:03:26 2009
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14:47 <rocinante#5> im shutting down for a while here. good day to
all! be back later or so...
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17:09 <marco#2> i think the db of opensubtitles is approacing the
catastrophe
17:10 <aragorn#2> lol
17:10 <aragorn#2> infoshop disease
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17:46 <marco#2> ok, good night ppl
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19:12 <ofelas> is the library up and running
19:12 <ofelas> ?
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03:03 -!- cumalali [xudid@dufoz.sise.silc] has joined chat
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03:07 <worker> hello
03:08 <cumalali> olleh
03:13 <worker> whats new cumalali ?
03:13 <worker> welcome to the chat server?
03:14 <cumalali> hey, thanks :)
03:15 <cumalali> Just found out about this SILC thing today
03:15 <worker> cool. from @news?
03:16 <cumalali> from 'anarchistlibrary', and then anarchistnews from
there yup
03:16 <worker> nice. are you familiar with IRC?
03:16 <cumalali> a little bit I guess
03:16 <cumalali> I've been to irc chatrooms before
03:17 <worker> there are some protocols that are useful to remember.
03:17 <cumalali> Yeah, I've been reading the command guides on the @news
03:17 <worker> like many ppl dont respond right away... cool.
03:17 <cumalali> quite helpful :)
03:17 <worker> what client are you using?
03:17 <cumalali> pidgin
03:17 <worker> are you on win?
03:17 <cumalali> that was the one in the guide
03:18 <cumalali> win...oh windows, yeah
03:18 <worker> k. Im not sure if there is another client for win. we
have found that pidgin is pretty buggy (which is too bad)
03:18 <cumalali> ah :(
03:19 <worker> yep. many of us use linux and use irssi as our client.
03:19 <cumalali> ah that's cool
03:19 <cumalali> I've tried some "live cd's" before, but they seemed slow
03:19 <worker> yeah. best to install. commit!
03:19 <cumalali> I don't have my own computer so can't install
linux-proper myself :-/
03:19 <worker> :-)
03:19 <worker> ah
03:20 <worker> how did you find out about the library?
03:21 <cumalali> my friend sent me an email with a link to, um, I think
it was a piece by zerzan
03:22 <worker> ah. interesting.
03:22 <cumalali> and then from there I explored the site
03:22 <worker> we just launched last week
03:22 <worker> this week!
03:22 <cumalali> oh wow
03:22 <cumalali> I had no idea it was that recent, y'all already have
hundreds of texts on there!
03:22 <worker> the site was entirely built from people working here
on SILC
03:22 <worker> yep
03:23 <cumalali> that's cool :)
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03:47 <worker> hey
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03:54 <duane#8> hello
03:54 <worker> I am off to work. ttyl
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03:55 <cumalali> olleh
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04:01 <duane#8> hey cumalali
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05:45 <duane#8> hi marco, another day
05:45 <duane#8> beginning
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05:56 <marco#2> hey duane, good morning
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10:29 -!- leona#5 [xuvov@lilon.sufu.silc] has joined chat
10:29 <leona#5> hullo people
10:29 <marco#2> hullo leona
10:29 <frenzy#4> hey leona
10:29 <leona#5> where is The Librarian?!
10:30 <leona#5> i miss my God...
10:30 <marco#2> you are in the wrong channel
10:30 <leona#5> oops
10:30 <leona#5> isn't that always the way it is
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10:55 <ZeroCool#2> AAA!
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13:49 <aragorn#2> I poweoff croatian for I am turning my power off?
13:54 -!- cumalali [xukec@cytab.vuda.silc] has joined chat
13:55 <aragorn#2> hello cumalali
13:58 <cumalali> olleh :)
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15:35 <aragorn#2> I am at work. just finished a technical sales
call. party!
15:35 <marco> party!
15:36 <aragorn#2> yep. I am learning more and more about the power of
very expensive gear from Cisco
15:36 <marco> eh
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18:00 <aragorn#2> hello all
18:00 <aragorn#2> how many ppl here would use a IM service like yahoo
hosted at an anarchist site?
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18:31 <aragorn#2> hey
18:34 <duane#8> hey
18:34 <duane#8> haha, this is the coolest picture ever:
http://pictureisunrelated.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/wtf_pics-rabbit-fencing.jpg
18:35 <aragorn#2> I think that has been used on @news before
18:37 <duane#8> great
18:37 <duane#8> haha this website is great
18:37 <duane#8> chicken fight baseball players. who would have thought
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00:36 <cumalali> olleh :)
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01:02 <duane#8> hi
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02:04 <catsup> hey duane#8
02:05 <duane#8> whats up
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02:11 <catsup> http://jerkface.net/playing-sheriff/
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02:40 <duane#8> yehaw
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02:46 <catsup> what do you think of 'playing sheriff'
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03:01 <duane#8> not much :-)
03:05 <catsup> :(
03:05 <catsup> how about this version:
03:07 <catsup> http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/941/attitude3.png
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03:28 <duane#8> much better
03:28 <duane#8> LOL
03:28 <duane#8> you bitter?
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08:56 <rocinante#7> because everyone picks on crimethinc.
08:56 <catsup> oh? picks on?
08:56 <rocinante#7> im loooking at a hand soap container right now with
the crimethinc logo on it
08:57 <catsup> ok?
09:00 <rocinante#7> so catssup, why do you think they are trying to
destory the anarchist movement
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--- Log opened Sat Jun 06 09:09:01 2009
09:09 <rocinante#7> (8:57:04 AM) <font size="3">catsup: i suspect that
crimethinc is deliberately attempting to destroy the possibilit yof an
anarchist movement</font>
09:09 <rocinante#7> why?
09:13 <catsup> hold on
09:13 <catsup> i'll paste
09:13 <catsup> 08:23 <catsup> i used to think the texts were just lame
but now that i am paying attention they seem deliberately debilitating
09:13 <catsup> 08:28 <catsup> dress up the same infantile indulgence
sold by consumerism as rebellion, encourage people to judge political
activity by the same standards of pleasure one judges a movie, basically
encourage people to destroy their own effectiveness in myriad ways
09:13 <catsup> 08:30 <catsup> Similarly, love poses a threat to our
political system, for it is difficult to convince a man who has a lot
to live for in his personal relationships to be willing to fight and
die for an abstraction such as the state; for that matter, it may be
difficult to convince him to even pay taxes.
09:13 <catsup> 08:30 <catsup> this is the exact opposite of truth