03:17 < penguincentral> it's for a small business
03:17 < penguincentral> maybe about two-three employees tops
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03:17 < ppc750> btw, can I install OS X Server as an upgrade to my existing OS
X?
03:17 < ppc750> (no clean install)
03:17 < penguincentral> ppc750: maybe, not sure though
03:18 * ppc750 will try
03:18 < penguincentral> but the thing is that the other two users would most
likely be using windows machines
03:18 < ppc750> penguincentral -- if you're admin, tell them not to use windows
03:18 < penguincentral> one person because specific bookkeeping software is
needed that's only on windows
03:18 < NeonMonk> personally, I'd go linux or bsd
03:18 < NeonMonk> http://www.macworld.com/article/131454/2008/01/leopardserver.html
03:19 < NeonMonk> my experiences with OS X Server definitely have pointed to
it not working that well with non-mac clients
03:19 < NeonMonk> but as always
03:19 < NeonMonk> YMMV
03:19 < penguincentral> ppc750: and the boss, well... he used windws at his
last job
03:19 <@Branes> penguincentral: Windows Home Server. HP Mediasmart Server in
particular. Would be perfect for that office setup, and
because it talks SMB is happy to work with Macs, too (and,
funnily enough, it is Time Machine compliant)
03:19 < penguincentral> where he heavily used outlook, a bit of project
03:19 < LSD`> ppc750: Not what I was getting at. In order to keep OSs other
than OS X locked out of the Mac hardware, Apple would have had
to invest time, effort and money continually updating things as
hackers found new ways to bypass their locks all the
whiledealing with people who'd bricked their machines trying
some of the more extreme hacks. By conceding that fight to them
and releasing Boot Camp and all the bits that make it possible
it reduces the r
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03:20 < LSD`> ppc750: However, it's not a concession Steve Jobs would make if
it was realistic not to
03:20 < penguincentral> Branes: the thing is that i want to avoid using
windows server software as much as i can
03:20 < HEMI> Funny, I want to avoid using Mac server software as much as I
can...
03:21 < NeonMonk> indeed
03:21 < HEMI> Cause OS X Server is a steaming pile. :)
03:21 < NeonMonk> I'm not a huge fan of Windows servers either
03:21 < penguincentral> HEMI: i thought it might be decent, but that's why i'm
doing the research
03:21 < NeonMonk> but they're better than OS X Server
03:21 < HEMI> NeonMonk: I'm glad you started showing up. It's nice to know
that I'm not the ONLY person that hates OS X Server.
03:21 < NeonMonk> for most things
03:21 < LSD`> WHS has its advantages, the problem though is the only way to
really get it is by buying machines with it
03:21 < HEMI> penguincentral: run away. Run away *now*.
03:22 < penguincentral> HEMI: have you got experience in os x server?
03:22 < HEMI> Hell, I'd pick a Linux server over OS X Server, and that's
saying a _lot_.
03:22 < HEMI> penguincentral: 2.5 years worth.
03:22 < NeonMonk> haha, I've always presumed everyone thought of OS X Server
as a bit of a joke
03:22 < penguincentral> HEMI: fair enough
03:22 < penguincentral> ok, let's see what i need
03:22 < penguincentral> i would need a mail server, a web server
03:22 < penguincentral> file server
03:22 < HEMI> I need...To go fold some laundry. brb.
03:22 < penguincentral> HEMI: right-o
03:23 < penguincentral> what would be nice is if i had the ability to control
what programs are on the client computers
03:23 < HEMI> With OS X Server you'll get a mail server that, after the 10.5.3
update, crashes randomly if you leave ClamAV enabled. :)
03:23 < HEMI> afk.
03:23 < penguincentral> a bit of remote desktop
03:23 < penguincentral> um
03:23 < penguincentral> i think that's it
03:24 < NeonMonk> well forget OS X Server
03:24 < penguincentral> NeonMonk: then if it's *that* bad then why do apple
offer it?
03:25 < NeonMonk> well, if you're administering a small network of Macs
03:25 < NeonMonk> it's *ok*
03:25 < NeonMonk> that's about all I'd use it for
03:26 < penguincentral> and i'd also need a calendar server
03:26 < penguincentral> forgot that :)
03:26 -!- Netsplit heinlein.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: rtwomey,
Blue_Ice, fred, ritsuka, seventoes, |omni|, the_giver,
KeeperOfTheSoul, MrMac2, genesis^, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show
all of them)
03:27 < NeonMonk> mmm netsplit
03:27 < HEMI> Back.
03:27 < HEMI> penguincentral: the *main* things to understand about OS X
Server:
03:27 < NeonMonk> penguincentral: honestly I'd probably just go with a windows
server for an environment like that
03:27 < HEMI> 1) the QA on the third party software is _nonexistant_. This is
evidenced by the ClamAV crashing BS, the PHP/Squirrelmail BS,
etc.
03:27 < NeonMonk> or pick a proper linux vendor
03:27 < penguincentral> NeonMonk: the thing is that i'm not going to be in the
office 5 days a week
03:28 < penguincentral> so it needs to be reliable
03:28 < penguincentral> HEMI: i see
03:28 < thewizzard> from what i hear Windows 2003 SBS is pretty reliable (and
it includes Exchange AFAIK, so mail and calendar would be
adressed)
03:28 < HEMI> 2) *Any* non-standard config or change you make automatically
makes it unsupported. Just by setting up NFS mounts by editing
/etc/exports by hand---which you have to do to set up NFS---is
"unsupported." If you have to hand-edit the apache config or
anything of the sort, guess what? No support. Say you want to
compile something that came with the server for an extra feature
(like, in our case, needing PHP to talk to Oracle)? Again, no
support.
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seventoes, genesis^, Blue_Ice, |omni|, fred, rtwomey (+1 more)
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03:30 < HEMI> 3) the documentation is abysmally bad. We have a Thawte SSL cert
that I obtained by creating a key pair, creating a CSR, sending
it off to Thawte, having it signed and installing it. Apple's
docs give you three or four (I lost count and don't care to look
now) methods to replace an already-existing cert before (or
after) it expires, but guess what? _None of them work._
03:31 < HEMI> With every *sane* OS on the planet, you can re-use key
pairs/CSRs. NOT OS X SERVER! The _only_ way I've been able to
replace a cert with another cert signed for the same FQDN is to
completely re-generate keys/CSRS _every time_. That's asinine.
03:32 < HEMI> 4) Customer service/support for Server is (unsurprisingly, to me
anyway) horrible. They have ZERO idea about Server at all.
03:32 < ppc750> okay, HEMI, OS X Server is hit
03:32 < ppc750> change /hit/shit/
03:32 < ppc750> :)
03:33 < HEMI> "I can't replace an SSL cert with another one for the same
FQDN." "Why don't you just sign your own?" "...Cause I want to
not have to set up my own CA, make sure everyone has my CA
public key, etc." "Really, you should just sign your own! We
make it easy!"
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03:34 < NeonMonk> HEMI speaks the truth
03:34 < penguincentral> HEMI: oh dear, that's bad
03:34 < HEMI> 5) (personal gripe) the user base is small. If *I* am
encountering unique problems that frustrate me, and this isn't
exactly my first ride at the rodeo as far as being a
professional sysadmin goes, I can't imagine how bad it is for
the people that just get handed a machine and go, "okay, here's
your new server!"
03:34 * penguincentral was right to ask the people in the know first :)
03:34 < HEMI> Note that even the _hard-core_ Mac fanbois hate OS X Server.
03:34 < penguincentral> HEMI: fair enough
03:34 < odb|fidel> =)
03:35 < NeonMonk> if you refuse to use windows... go IBM
03:35 < penguincentral> i may as well run a linux server
03:35 < penguincentral> but i really wanted to work with mac hardware
03:35 < HEMI> Also note that Apple obviously doesn't use/test it internally,
otherwise they would have discovered a lot of these bugs (like
the ClamAV-crashing and the PHP-breaking-squirrelmail bugs)
before they ever went to the customers.
03:35 < thewizzard> if you're going to run linux, i'd check out Zimbra for
mail/calendar
03:35 < HEMI> penguincentral: the hardware is on-par with other low-end x86
server vendors.
03:35 < HEMI> It's nothing special.
03:35 < NeonMonk> http://www-304.ibm.com/jct03004c/businesscenter/smallbusiness/us/en/servers/
03:36 < HEMI> The ONLY nice hardware bit is the drive sleds work well, but
from what I've heard tend to fail at a higher rate than other
drive sleds.
03:36 < penguincentral> HEMI: i get the idea. I'd be better off running a
linux server
03:37 < HEMI> We got our Intel XServe and my boss was THRILLED! "Look,
redundant power supplies! LOM! A non-crazy rack kit!" I didn't
want to bust his bubble and tell him that IBM had been doing
most of that stuff for _ten years_.
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03:37 < HEMI> The G4 XServes, hardware-wise, were awful. No redundant power,
no LOM, a rack kit that made me want to take a salad fork to my
face, etc...The G5 ones were slightly better and the Intel ones
are, like I said before, on par with other low-end x86 hardware
vendors' 1U offerings...But nothing special.
03:38 < NeonMonk> I love IBM servers
03:38 * HEMI *heart* IBM.
03:38 < HEMI> I like IBM in general.
03:38 < HEMI> They've made a lot of smart moves.
03:38 < HEMI> Divesting themselves of their end-user hardware business was
brilliant.
03:38 < ppc750> have you seen this -->
http://terrasoftsolutions.com/products/powerstation/
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03:39 < NeonMonk> it sure was
03:39 < ppc750> it's wonderful. DO WANT
03:39 < HEMI> IBM does an absolutely awesome job of listening to what their
customers want...Then giving them what they want.
03:39 < NeonMonk> penguincentral:
http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/jsp/express/x/tower.jsp
03:39 * penguincentral then goes for IBM
03:40 < penguincentral> thanks for ur help guys :)
03:40 < HEMI> penguincentral: I'd suggest FreeBSD over Linux, but others will
disagree.
03:40 < penguincentral> HEMI: yeah
03:40 < NeonMonk> I agree
03:40 < NeonMonk> however
03:40 * penguincentral comes from a linux background
03:40 < penguincentral> so it would suit me a bit more
03:40 < NeonMonk> if you want support you're better off going with an
established Linux vendor
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03:40 * penguincentral laughs at NeonMonk
03:40 < HEMI> In closing, I'd just like to say that OS X Server has been the
bane of my professional existence for 2.5 years now. It's so bad
I will actively suppress that I know anything about OS X next
time I'm in the job market. :)
03:40 < NeonMonk> :)
03:40 < HEMI> I came from a Linux background, too.
03:40 < penguincentral> :)
03:41 < NeonMonk> just saying, some people like having someone they can blame
03:41 < HEMI> But I found something that works better for me.
03:41 < ppc750> OS X Server was released much before Mac OS X public beta
03:41 < ppc750> it was the reason why I've tried it
03:41 < NeonMonk> OS X Server could be a decent product
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03:41 < NeonMonk> but it's about 5 years of hardwork on Apple's behalf away
from that
03:41 < NeonMonk> and they're not interested
03:41 < NeonMonk> at all.
03:41 < HEMI> I could go on to horror stories of the Mac cluster at UIUC's
NCSA...You know, the second-largest Mac cluster IN THE WORLD?
03:42 < HEMI> I know the guys that run it.
03:42 < HEMI> Both of them *were* hard-core Mac guys.
03:42 < HEMI> Now they absolutely _loathe_ Apple.
03:42 < HEMI> OS X Server *could* be decent.
03:42 < NeonMonk> definitely
03:42 < HEMI> But it won't be.
03:42 < NeonMonk> definitely.
03:42 < NeonMonk> unless of course Apple replace Jobs with someone from IBM
03:43 * NeonMonk laughs at the thought
03:43 < HEMI> haha
03:43 * ppc750 liked Apple before that fukken switch
03:43 < HEMI> It's not a hardware problem, though.
03:43 < HEMI> My hatred comes from the software side.
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03:43 < NeonMonk> well the real problem is that Apple aren't interested
03:43 < HEMI> Oh, okay, I have to go in to this, though...Cause this is both a
hardware/software problem...
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03:44 < HEMI> The Mac cluster at UIUC uses a whole pile of XServes...G4 or G5,
I forget which.
03:44 < NeonMonk> they've made something decent enough for casual Mac yuppies
to use with their home network
03:44 < ppc750> HEMI -- forget OS X Server, what's more don't you like in
Apple's softeare?