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Friday, October 11th, 2013 at 6:06:31pm UTC 

  1. Mr. Sanchez
  2.         indeed, do you know what kind of languages he expects the stuff to be in?
  3. Elf Ate All
  4.         mostly PHP and HTML/CSS/JS
  5. Mr. Sanchez
  6.         nice, good to have some reason to practice them
  7. Elf Ate All
  8.         yeah
  9.         When I'm not working on school stuff i'm working on C programs
  10. Mr. Sanchez
  11.         yeah, same for me but with JS. Although I haven't had many ideas lately
  12. Elf Ate All
  13.         C is just so beautiful
  14. Mr. Sanchez
  15.         haha
  16. Elf Ate All
  17.         testing out my X to Y converter
  18.         so now I have sexy Z in plan 9
  19.         B )
  20.         <Link>
  21.         yeeee
  22. Mr. Sanchez
  23.         Haha, what a guy, I should practice C some myself, it's definitely useful for that kind of thing (I'm assuming it;s all done in C right?)
  24.         nice~
  25. Elf Ate All
  26.         Yeah
  27.         repository.com/beep
  28.         All of plan 9 is in C and rc (scripting language) lol
  29. Mr. Sanchez
  30.         nice
  31.         lol, I'm looking the code for the X thing, no idea what's happening
  32. Elf Ate All
  33.         And once you understand C and assembly you can code drivers and do any thing with your system
  34.         which is basically the point I'm at
  35.         I'm pretty happy with it
  36.         hahaha
  37.         You'll want to start at main
  38.         at the bottom
  39. Mr. Sanchez
  40.         ok, yeah I'm at main at the top, I'll scroll down
  41.         lol your flipping naming scheme for functions
  42. Elf Ate All
  43.         main is at the bottom because the compiler works by compiling the above functions, and if main() calls any other functions while its at the top, the compiler wont be able to generate assembly because they are not defined yet
  44. Mr. Sanchez
  45.         no camel case, no snake XD
  46. Elf Ate All
  47.         ?
  48. Mr. Sanchez
  49.         I was complaining about your function names
  50. Elf Ate All
  51.         Sorry, I mean: Where am I flipping naming schemes?
  52.         I thought everything was 1 word
  53.         well, "word"
  54.         no spaces or underscores, and no capitals
  55. Mr. Sanchez
  56.         lol, I use flipping as a replacement for freaking or the like
  57. Elf Ate All
  58.         ooooh
  59.         hahahaha
  60.         yeah!@
  61. Mr. Sanchez
  62.         I meant that I find your naming scheme hard to read :-OP
  63. Elf Ate All
  64.         That is the C standard man!
  65.         It's easy!
  66.         canyounotreadthis?
  67.         executemissilelaunch()
  68. Mr. Sanchez
  69.         icanbutalotslowerthanicouldreaditwithcapsforeachword
  70. Elf Ate All
  71.         or maybe
  72.         they aren't that long though!
  73.         they are supposed to be short
  74. Mr. Sanchez
  75.         executeMissileLaunch()
  76. Elf Ate All
  77.         exemissle()
  78. Mr. Sanchez
  79.         I'm not arguing that it works, it's just that it doesn't seem like it's encouraging readability
  80. Elf Ate All
  81.         execmissile() *
  82. Mr. Sanchez
  83.         execMissile
  84. Elf Ate All
  85.         nah too messy then
  86. Mr. Sanchez
  87.         both work obviously, I just prefer when the separation is clear
  88. Elf Ate All
  89.         too much noise on the screen
  90. Mr. Sanchez
  91.         haha, if you say so
  92. Elf Ate All
  93.         You know I was totally convinced camel case was the ultimate
  94. Mr. Sanchez
  95.         actually now that I look at the code, that's the reason I'm having trouble understanding it XD. I guess I'd just have to get used to it
  96.         lol, I can guess what you're going to say
  97. Elf Ate All
  98.         But then a bunch of plan 9 people beat my brain with their words, and then they made me realize
  99.         you need to READ the code, not skim through it
  100.         if you really want to understand
  101.         if you don't really want to understand the code, then don't look at it
  102.         there is a ton of plan 9 code with single letter variables
  103.         and I actually understand it
  104.         because I've gotten used to understanding code on the fly quickly
  105.         of course anything complex is commented though
  106. Mr. Sanchez
  107.         There are always counter arguments.  No one is the ultimate authority and in the end it all comes down to personal choice and what you're comfortable with. My counter argument would be that with a more clear naming scheme you are able to both skim and read the code, slow down to read, speed up to skim. If you're not able to skim code you won't succeed in a competitive world. Sometimes a quick hack job is required and readable code only makes that easier.
  108. Elf Ate All
  109.         Ultimately you're right, it won't matter what scheme people use
  110. Mr. Sanchez
  111.         I don't think I need to reduce the readability of my code to make sure I force myself to read it closely. I have the discipline to slow down and understand when I have to.
  112. Elf Ate All
  113.         because either person reading the code will understand each with the same amount of ease
  114.         if they are that good at reading code
  115.         to some people though, this convention IS more readable
  116.         know what I mean?
  117.         maybe this added layer of abstraction is better for them
  118.         maybe it makes it easier to add code
  119.         or revise
  120. Mr. Sanchez
  121.         yeah, that's why I say that it comes to down to preference. I find it hard to believe that any sane person would say they find it 'easier' but I there are definitely crazy people out there.
  122. Elf Ate All
  123.         I personally just stick to whatever the standard is for the language
  124.         I do not do this in Java
  125. Mr. Sanchez
  126.         that's fair enough, I tend to do the same
  127. Elf Ate All
  128.         in JS, I use the Java standard because that's what most people do
  129.         anyways, damn you, distracting me from my lab!
  130.         <insert rage face>
  131.         maybe there is an emote that can satisfy this
  132. Mr. Sanchez
  133.         I've seen a lot of C code written using camel case, and I find it hard to believe that one character variables names is a standard but I guess it also depends on the project.  and sorry I'll leave you alone XD
  134. Mr. Sanchez
  135. Elf Ate All
  136. Elf Ate All
  137.         Yea I've seen the same
  138.         I just stick to whatever standard is being used
  139.         If I had to make a system for the military
  140.         believe you me, I'm using camel case
  141.         or else they may like it for the first 5 months until they need maintainence, then UNINSTALL
  142. Mr. Sanchez
  143.         Indeed, I'm doing a bit of research now, and it looks like it's pretty all over the place. with consistency being the key, so if plan9 uses that style and you're coding for plan9 then you're doing it right
  144.         yup
  145. Elf Ate All
  146.         yeah all plan 9 code is like that
  147.         if you still have my repository open and go to "universe", most of that is the window manager code
  148. Mr. Sanchez
  149.         apparently classic C style is snake case though, strange, wouldn't have though it
  150.         you coded the universe :-0 I'll check it out
  151. Elf Ate All
  152.         heh, not quite!
  153.         maybe one day though it will evolve into that..
  154. Mr. Sanchez
  155.         nice
  156.         I'm looking through it
  157. Elf Ate All
  158.         The main reason why I like C is because of the complete control you have
  159.         and as a side effect, the raw speed of everything
  160.         This is why I like Plan 9
  161. Mr. Sanchez
  162.         yup, it's pretty nice
  163. Elf Ate All
  164.         and the fact that there is no bullshit code
  165.         the entire system is 60MB compiled
  166.         is multithreaded
  167.         etc
  168.         just not the same amount of hardware support, which obviously sucks
  169.         but it's things like this that make great coders
  170. Mr. Sanchez
  171.         it's pretty impressive, although with a lot less than 60MB in things like tinycore or puppy linux you can have a lot of mature hardware support and even eye candy to a certain degree
  172. Elf Ate All
  173.         actually believe it or not, those will only support framebuffer (vesa) graphics
  174.         which will support the same amount of devices as plan 9
  175. Mr. Sanchez
  176.         puppy linux supports xorg
  177. Elf Ate All
  178.         xorg is not a driver
  179. Mr. Sanchez
  180.         lol, I don't know the name of this stuff
  181. Elf Ate All
  182.         xorg is just a graphics platform
  183. Mr. Sanchez
  184.         but it supports x server stuff and falls back on vesa iirc
  185. Elf Ate All
  186.         there are vesa drivers coded that xorg uses to access the framebuffer
  187.         so you're saying it natively supports cards then
  188.         ok
  189.         puppy is bigger than 60MB though, isn't it?
  190. Mr. Sanchez
  191.         some are some aren't there are a lot of different packages of it
  192. Elf Ate All
  193.         (not making an argument out of it XD)
  194.         ok
  195. Mr. Sanchez
  196.         I think that the nicest one I used was around 120MB though, so not less than 60MB.. but
  197.         it did come with a full office suite, graphics editing, code editor, wallpapers, browsers, terminals etc
  198.         and wifi supprot
  199.         etc
  200. Elf Ate All
  201.         tinycore is..4-8MB? This is with basically no software installed though
  202. Mr. Sanchez
  203.         it was pretty mind blowing for me
  204.         yeah
  205. Elf Ate All
  206.         plan 9, just the kernel
  207.         and  a terminal
  208.         is like less than 1MB
  209.         and it completely functional still
  210.         I think netbsd is like this too
  211.         If plan 9 did exist I'd be using netbsd
  212.         because they follow the same philosophy
  213.         but since there are drivers already coded for linux including graphics modules is not a big deal
  214.         a driver is pretty small unless it's a full blown NVIDIA or ATI card
  215. Mr. Sanchez
  216.         yeah, linux gets pretty close too though. tinycore comes with a terminal, a dock, basic network support and a good package manager with those 8MB
  217.         yeah
  218.         or 12MB actually, 8MB is microcore
  219. Elf Ate All
  220.         package manager, so glad that doesn't exist in plan 9
  221.         plan 9 has a ports-like thing going on
  222.         uses mercurial
  223.         want to get updates from the repo? ok! hg update
  224.         takes 5 minutes to recompile all the software
  225.         it is amazing
  226.         entire system compilation in 5 minutes, damn
  227.         takes me 10 hours just to build X from source
  228.         even longer for chrome and firefox
  229. Mr. Sanchez
  230.          not having a package isn't an advantage  if you have one you still go the mercurial route, you're just closing off another possible option.
  231. Elf Ate All
  232.         software shouldn't be like that in this day and age
  233.         package managers exist because all the dependencies
  234.         and of course to a way to get software in Linux distros
  235.         in plan 9, there are...10 libraries?
  236.         all the software depends on those, and nothing else
  237.         it is beautiful
  238.         face to face I have a really hard time explaining this to peolpe
  239.         people*
  240.         because really plan 9 is only better where people don't usually look
  241.         Sorry I'm typing so much, I get excited
  242. Mr. Sanchez
  243.         lol, but I can say that isn't super logical, I can say make any random OS and create all my own libs and then say that it only has that many dependencies. That isn't really an advantage either, it just means you can't take advantage of what's out there.
  244. Elf Ate All
  245.         Oh but you can, and plan 9 does tis too!
  246.         this*
  247.         They have a separate build environment- APE
  248. Mr. Sanchez
  249.         I get what you're saying but with the power of todays computers being frugal on that end of things and limiting youself doesn't seem that logical.
  250.         hm
  251. Elf Ate All
  252.         This allows plan 9 users to build any POSIX software
  253.         and has allowed them to use things already coded like libvorbis and libmad (mp3 playing)
  254.         and it doesn't contaminate the system
  255.         win-win situation
  256.         hell, there are people using chrome in plan 9
  257.         via linuxemu, an linux binary compatibility layer
  258.         again, sorry for typing so much lol
  259. Mr. Sanchez
  260.         I guess so, but for me whenever I start getting convinced by this kind of thing I have to step back and think as a user. I'm actually sitting here using my windows 8 machine perfectly happily. I am not aware of any contamination or huge inefficiencies in the system code or anything. It's pretty funny to think about actually. and lol, it's fine, I should probably let you get back to your lab
  261. Elf Ate All
  262.         heh
  263.         I don't mean what I'm about to say in a literal sense
  264.         But this is because you aren't an applications programmer
  265.         You mostly deal with what, Java and JS?
  266.         Please tell if I'm wrong, I in no way mean to offend you
  267.         IMO, there is nothing wrong with Windows 8
  268.         I think the Linux junkies (yeah, I was one of those!) are crazy
  269.         Millions of people use Windows 8 for a reason
  270.         and that's because it just works (tm)
  271.         and it has its own use cases , just like plan 9
  272. Mr. Sanchez
  273.         Haha, don't worry, I'm painfully aware of it myself, and it doesn't bother me anyway, in a way I think that it can be advantageous to just reap the benefits of the low end programmers and just have fun with the top level scripting stuff. I basically don't do anything except for web stuff. Mostly because I just don't have any ideas  and also since the web is maturing so quickly I can do most stuff on the web anyway and it just wouldn't make sense to do it in an OS app.
  274. Mr. Sanchez
  275.         low level*
  276.         not low end lol
  277. Elf Ate All
  278.         I totally agree
  279.         I think you should stick with what you're doing
  280.         There really is no point in learning C unless you begin to look for a more "pure" system, in the sense that , every line of code matters to you
  281.         It can be seen as a curse or a gift I suppose
  282.         It actually bugs me to use Linux
  283.         imagine that
  284.         knowing the binary code running through my cpu is inefficient
  285. Mr. Sanchez
  286.         xD that does sound more like a curse
  287. Elf Ate All
  288.         heh
  289.         then I hear stuff about linux, running in javascript, running in a web browser, that's running on linux
  290.         dear lord kill me now
  291.         of course it's for research purposes
  292.         which is neat
  293. Mr. Sanchez
  294.         I also hate inefficiencies, but I deal with them at a much higher level  things like programs running on startup or scheduled tasks that I don't need etc.
  295. Elf Ate All
  296.         but people believe it's a good idea!
  297.         yeah
  298.         a system like plan 9 has no startup/scheduled task stuff
  299.         it can
  300.         but by default, no
  301. Mr. Sanchez
  302.         And that's the thing, the beauty of programming is that even while writing javascript every line can matter to me, because I could flipping write a c compiler to a certain degree in JS, just the other day I saw a JVM written in lua. Pretty much anything is possible even in these nested environments.
  303. Elf Ate All
  304.         yeah I guess you can say the inefficiencies I think about run much deeper
  305. Mr. Sanchez
  306.         yeah
  307. Elf Ate All
  308.         well the idea is that you can program anything in anything
  309.         I think those people are not serious about those types of projects on a production scale
  310.         they do it purely for proof of concept
  311.         which is what I do in plan 9
  312.         much better suited to C
  313.         I guess you can say
  314.         plan 9 is the web browser and C is my JS
  315.         the two go hand in hand
  316. Mr. Sanchez
  317.         indeed  it's just a different skin for the same principle
  318. Elf Ate All
  319.         except I end up with more functionality
  320.         but soon I predict that to change
  321.         JS graphics drivers
  322. Mr. Sanchez
  323.         well you end up with a wider range of possibility
  324. Elf Ate All
  325.         Chrome extension on your web cam driver
  326. Mr. Sanchez
  327.         I would argue that I am able to achieve functionality in a more efficient manner just because of the richness and proximity of the high level APIs
  328. Elf Ate All
  329.         HTML in your toaster
  330. Mr. Sanchez
  331.         obviously forgoing efficiency
  332.         well... "true" efficiency
  333.         haha
  334. Elf Ate All
  335.         you'd be surprised how rich the C libraries can be
  336.         want to have a little code comparison?
  337.         write out some line, and I'll copy it in C
  338.         if you're busy though I understand, or this may feel pointless
  339.         XD
  340. Mr. Sanchez
  341.         lol ok, I we can try that, I was thinking more about the whole GUI aspect of it.
  342. Elf Ate All
  343.         ooohh
  344.         ok
  345.         yes
  346. Mr. Sanchez
  347.         but we can try with just program code
  348. Elf Ate All
  349.         I totally agree C or any application language is bad for this
  350.         But!
  351.         This can be emulated
  352.         or simulated, rather
  353.         I can have an html file, and in my C file, I could have
  354.         HTMLNode *node = getHTMLNodeByID("book", htmlFile);
  355.         I can do this in C
  356.         If I coded it of course
  357.         I bet shit like this exists!
  358.         (shit -> good stuff like this)
  359. Mr. Sanchez
  360.         true that, but that's what I'm talking about it's not as straight cut and supported. But that's the nature of the thing.
  361.         var arr = [1,2,3,4];
  362.         arr.reduce(function(last,cur){return last + cur;},0)/arr.length;
  363.         average calc yo
  364.         lol
  365. Elf Ate All
  366.         ok
  367.         int arr[] = {1,2,3,4};
  368.         ah shit
  369.         hold on
  370.         int arr[] = {0,1,2,3,4};
  371.         for(int i = 1; i < 5; i++, arr[0]+=arr[i])
  372.         done
  373.         oh wait
  374.         forgot the division
  375.         int arr[] = {0,1,2,3,4}; for(int i = 1; i < 5; i++, arr[0]+=arr[i]); arr[0]/=4;
  376.         average in 3 lines of C
  377.         that was actually pretty cool
  378.         I use the first element, 0, as storage
  379. Mr. Sanchez
  380.         yeah, it's harcoded though
  381.         the 4 the 5 and the storage 0
  382. Elf Ate All
  383.         didn't specify
  384.         storage is always zero in this case
  385.         ok
  386.         you want dynamic, easy!
  387.         int arr[] = {0,1,2,3,4}; for(int i = 1; i < 5; i++, arr[0]+=arr[i]); arr[0]/=4;
  388.         ah shit
  389. Mr. Sanchez
  390.         I mean the fact that you could pass any int array and get the average
  391. Elf Ate All
  392.         tried to format it, ignore that
  393.         yeah, you can do the same here
  394.         just hold onnnn
  395. Mr. Sanchez
  396.         var avg = function(arr) {
  397.          return arr.reduce(function(last,cur) {
  398.           return last + cur;
  399.         }, 0)/arr.length;
  400.         }
  401.         avg([1,2,3,4]);
  402.         theres mine
  403.         var avg = function(arr) {
  404.           return arr.reduce(function(last,cur) {
  405.             return last + cur;
  406.           }, 0)/arr.length;
  407.         }
  408.         avg([1,2,3,4]);
  409.         it's a pretty pointless exercise, because obviously there isn't going to be much of a difference when it comes to basic math features of the languages
  410. Elf Ate All
  411.         int avg(int *a){
  412.         int o=0;
  413.         for(int i = 0; i < sizeof(a/sizeof(int)); i++, o+=a[i]);
  414.         o/=sizeof(a/sizeof(int))-1;
  415.         return o;
  416.         }
  417. Mr. Sanchez
  418.         haha, nice
  419. Elf Ate All
  420.         sizeof() returns size in bytes
  421.         a is an int array pointer
  422.         sizeof(a) will only return the size, not elements
  423.         so ya
  424. Mr. Sanchez
  425.         there isn't a built in method to get the length of an array?
  426. Elf Ate All
  427.         well, in plan 9, the people made one, because in the standard C library there's not
  428.         but for good reason
  429.         because all you have to is make a macro lol
  430.         so, in plan 9 I would use nmem()
  431.         it is a macro in some library
  432.         libc.h I think
  433. Mr. Sanchez
  434.         I see
  435. Elf Ate All
  436.         but as you see, it is not as hard to code whatever in JS in C
  437.         this is why many make the argument that C is basically all the world needs
  438. Mr. Sanchez
  439.         haha, I gave you an easy example. like I said, there better not be that much of disconnect in order to perform basic arithmetic
  440. Elf Ate All
  441.         if people made proper libraries and what not, we could have JS-like C if you wanted
  442.         right, right
  443.         you'd be surprised though
  444. Mr. Sanchez
  445.         but the counter argument would be... why C?
  446. Elf Ate All
  447.         how similar all languages are
  448. Mr. Sanchez
  449.         you could do that with any language
  450.         any language could do anything
  451. Elf Ate All
  452.         why C? because it's fast, compiles fast, and you can do anything with it.
  453.         and by anything I really mean anything
  454.         you don't have that type of control in JS
  455. Mr. Sanchez
  456.         C doesn't have especially efficient syntax and adding more features to it would change what it really is
  457. Elf Ate All
  458.         not at all
  459.         you stick with only functions that are necessary
  460.         anything convenient, just save it for yourself
  461. Mr. Sanchez
  462.         the reason that C is fast has nothing to do with the syntax though, it could be any other language under the right circumstances
  463. Elf Ate All
  464.         you asked why C
  465.         not, why C syntax
  466.         JS syntax is more expressive obviously
  467. Mr. Sanchez
  468.         right, but I mean that work on getting C-like performance on languages with more efficient syntax
  469. Elf Ate All
  470.         hell, that's why I was going to learn coffeescript
  471. Mr. Sanchez
  472.         best of both worlds, js syntax is pretty much considered c-like
  473. Elf Ate All
  474.         one of the top 10 most expressive languages
  475. Mr. Sanchez
  476.         there are many better syntaxes out there
  477. Elf Ate All
  478.         You will never get C-like performance with JS
  479.         You want JS-like? See: Gooogle Go
  480.         asotneuhsaoehtnusaoetnuh
  481.         You want C-like performance but JS-like syntax? Google Go
  482. Mr. Sanchez
  483.         I don't want js-like  I have no special love for the syntax. It's not great. The reason I like it is because of the environment
  484. Elf Ate All
  485.         Very nice syntax
  486.         or even C++
  487.         Why not just use C++
  488.         ah
  489. Mr. Sanchez
  490.         python, ruby, or an even better example something like livescript or coffeescript
  491. Elf Ate All
  492.         well then
  493. Mr. Sanchez
  494.         that's where expressiveness lives
  495. Elf Ate All
  496.         yeah coffeescript is the best I've seen so far
  497.         so great
  498.         they are introducing jQuery/coffeescript syntaxes into the new ECMASCRIPT standard, did you know that?
  499.         so things look good mang
  500. Mr. Sanchez
  501.         Yup, the new ECMA stuff is really cool.
  502.         I end up doing pure js most of the time just for simplicity, but if I was starting a major project and I had the option to do it in coffeescript I would do it for sure.
  503.         simplicity in deployment I
  504.         mean
  505. Elf Ate All
  506.         but as for performance...I don't think it'll happen, the complexity of syntax makes the compiler have to guess too much
  507.         but this is false when you look at C and C++...
  508.         so actually, I  don't know
  509.         Apparently C++ code is faster than C
  510.         surprising, right?
  511. Mr. Sanchez
  512.         nope, why else would be there be a ++  it obviously means it's better lol
  513. Elf Ate All
  514.         I think the conclusion was the c++ compiler had more work done on it by bigger companies (Google, IBM, Intel{
  515. Mr. Sanchez
  516.         yeah, in the end that's what it comes down to. also languages like python that have really nice syntaxes can and also great performance are the way to go imo.
  517. Elf Ate All
  518.         There was some issue with contributing to gcc
  519.         maybe licensing or something
  520.         in the end I truly think it comes down to support
  521.         If everyone puts their resources into making coffeescript as fast as C
  522.         I bet you'd see that within 1-2 yerars
  523.         years*(
  524.         but it won't happen
  525.         Have multi-billion dollar companies work with the greatest minds
  526.         maybe the world would be a better place
  527. Mr. Sanchez
  528.         yeah I agree, although I also do think that there are some hard limits.
  529.         I mean when it comes down to it javascript is going through C extensions and the like.
  530.         But premature optimization is one of the great evils in programming  some programs don't need the speed as much as they need the maintainability
  531. Elf Ate All
  532.         code an OS in 1 line
  533.         universe.os()
  534. Mr. Sanchez
  535.         it can be done, just uglify
  536. Elf Ate All
  537.         universe being equivalent to document in JS hahaha
  538. Mr. Sanchez
  539.         hahah
  540. Elf Ate All
  541.         man, great talk man
  542.         I really do enjoy it
  543.         I find face to face it's really difficult to convey my ideas
  544.         you seem to do better typing them out too
  545.         I try to explain everything in 5 minutes face to face and just fail
  546. Mr. Sanchez
  547.         yeah, it's a little easier to make a point when you have time to think about it as you type and maybe do a bit of research (something which you can't really do easily when you're talking face to face).
  548.         I enjoy talking about this kind of stuff too
  549. Mr. Sanchez
  550.         <Link>
  551.         JS Bin
  552.         jsbin.com
  553.         timer app
  554. Mr. Sanchez
  555.         my latest and greatest invention
  556. Elf Ate All
  557.         And as for hard limits, I will say that I think we'll get to a point where we are being too expressive (universe.os() example), because being specific in programming is important too!
  558. Mr. Sanchez
  559.         indeed
  560. Elf Ate All
  561.         what is this madness
  562.         Clear timer -> still counting down
  563.         from last number
  564. Mr. Sanchez
  565.         watchu saying?
  566.         doesn't happen for me. how'd you do it?
  567. Elf Ate All
  568.         click on a box, starts automatically
  569.         59 to 0
  570.         but when I click clear timer, it goes to zero, then back up to say, 58
  571.         after zero, minutes goes to 59
  572.         and seconds starts back at 59
  573. Mr. Sanchez
  574.         hm, what browser are you using it, I only tested in chrome
  575.         lol
  576. Elf Ate All
  577.         hahaha
  578.         firefox
  579.         this is hilarious
  580.         I'm guessing this is not intended
  581. Mr. Sanchez
  582.         haha, yeah, works perfectly in chrome. I'm having an issue in IE too (i don't have firefox installed to test)
  583. Elf Ate All
  584.         click set stimer
  585.         click set timer -> double click 0 in hours
  586.         starts the timer
  587.         hahaha
  588. Mr. Sanchez
  589.         lol, now I kind of want to install firefox just to see that
  590.         I think the issue might be that I'm using a webkit only api for the alarm sound (do you hear anything?)
  591.         so when it fails the call it skips clearing the interval so it messes up the time
  592. Elf Ate All
  593.         I don't hear anything
  594.         I see the error in console though
  595. Mr. Sanchez
  596.         that's it then. if an error happens it skips the rest of the calls, one of which was clearing the timer lol
  597.         well great
  598. Elf Ate All
  599.        
  600.         HTTP "Content-Type" of "audio/mpeg" is not supported. Load of media resource <Link> failed.
  601.         not a firefox issue
  602.         actually yes
  603.         firefox will never support mp3 natively
  604.         try ogg vorbis
  605. Mr. Sanchez
  606.         ahh, good point
  607. Elf Ate All
  608.         audio/vorbis
  609.         I remember reading up licensing crap over that
  610.         so silly
  611.         Just like you, I too want to just listen to mp3s on my machine
  612.         I think firefox will burn out
  613.         give it 10 years
  614.         EVERYONE is moving to webkit
  615.         that means more devs
  616.         and firefox I hear has horrid source code
  617. Mr. Sanchez
  618.         or maybe firefox will switch to blink/webkit like opera
  619. Elf Ate All
  620.         hah, never
  621.         they are too stubborn
  622. Mr. Sanchez
  623.         <Link>
  624.         JS Bin
  625.         jsbin.com
  626.         timer app
  627. Elf Ate All
  628.         and have spent too much time
  629. Mr. Sanchez
  630.         should work now
  631. Elf Ate All
  632.         on gecko
  633. Mr. Sanchez
  634.         yeah  that's true
  635. Elf Ate All
  636.         no error
  637.         but no noise either
  638. Mr. Sanchez
  639.         hm, i just installed firefox and I hear the sound
  640. Elf Ate All
  641.         I would be using chrome right now if my debian install wasn't broken
  642.         I'm done with firefoxlol
  643.         must be some issue with my system, don't worry about it
  644. Mr. Sanchez
  645.         haha, ok. are you on linux now?
  646. Elf Ate All
  647.         and personally, everyone should use the same web browser so we have a unified web platform
  648.         yea
  649. Mr. Sanchez
  650.         yeah, that would be nice. Although competition isn't a bad thing either
  651.         keeps them inovating
  652. Elf Ate All
  653.         bah
  654.         look at plan 9 dev, are they REALLY competing against anyone?
  655.         they're in a league of their own with little to no players
  656. Mr. Sanchez
  657.         lol, but look at their userbase and how popular they are, that's the real measure in today's world
  658. Elf Ate All
  659.         a think no competition doesn't change anything
  660.         my bad
  661.         i don't mean that
  662.         i mean
  663.         at a higher level it doesn't matter
  664.         but say-
  665.         what happens when developers start competing to start commiting the best patches with the best features?
  666.         for the 1 ultimate web platform
  667.         sounds damn good to me
  668. Mr. Sanchez
  669.         possibly. But like we were saying before it's money that ends up affecting the real value of something, investments and such. Competition is in the same world as money and investments.
  670.         That sounds good to me too, but really it comes down to the corporations and the investments they make
  671. Mr. Sanchez
  672.         to a certain extent
  673. Elf Ate All
  674.         "I just had this great idea that people would love and I need to code it before someone else does!!"
  675.         hey man, chrome is open source
  676.         and webkit/blink
  677.         money isn't a big issue
  678. Mr. Sanchez
  679.         chromemium is, not chrome
  680. Elf Ate All
  681.         chromium is just chrome without branding
  682. Mr. Sanchez
  683.         and chromium has the same issues with mp3 files and flash, and pdfs and all that
  684. Elf Ate All
  685.         and flash plugin
  686. Mr. Sanchez
  687.         and pdf
  688.         lol
  689. Elf Ate All
  690.         ah that oo
  691.         too*(
  692.         but you can still install them afterwards
  693.         (I've randomly seen "how-tos"
  694.         )
  695. Mr. Sanchez
  696.         yeah, but the reason they exist to "install back" is because there is also a proprietary version that is investing in those solutions
  697. Elf Ate All
  698.         which is fine? gives something investors to spend on
  699.         only to have chromium users STILL install and use them
  700. Mr. Sanchez
  701.         the reason that chromium is what it is is because a corporation like google is putting the branded version in the foreground.
  702. Elf Ate All
  703.         right
  704. Mr. Sanchez
  705.         Yeah, but it still goes back to the whole thing about competion. They want market share so they do all this.
  706. Elf Ate All
  707.         right
  708. Mr. Sanchez
  709.         If it didn't make google money chromeium wouldn't be what it
  710.         is
  711.         I don't think
  712. Elf Ate All
  713.         I was about to make a world analogy
  714.         but parts of the world are owned by certain people
  715. Mr. Sanchez
  716.         yup
  717. Elf Ate All
  718.         I guess parts of the internet will only work with certain browsers forever
  719. Mr. Sanchez
  720.         I guess, although, things are definitely getting better on that front. Nowadays as long as you have a modern browser you are mostly fine in most places. Libraries go a long way to make it easier for the average dev too
  721. Elf Ate All
  722.         Yeah
  723.         but we are still having the same issues we had 20 years ago
  724.         only certain features will work in certain browsers
  725.         and this is because "modern" is defined as "supports html5 and js"
  726.         but in reality, there is MUCH more to support than just that
  727.         like web sockets
  728. Mr. Sanchez
  729.         yeah, but I think that goes back to the experimentation thing and the innovation thing. These new features are browser exclusive because they are young. Many of the APIs we take for granted today were exclusive originally. Once the get tested and improved they start getting implemented in other browsers. But yeah ultimately you're right.
  730. Elf Ate All
  731.         people are using them before it's even a standard
  732.         or webgl
  733.         anyways
  734.         final thing to say
  735. Mr. Sanchez
  736.         people have to use them in order for them to have a chance at standardization 
  737. Elf Ate All
  738.         when is web 3d coming out?
  739. Mr. Sanchez
  740.         web 3d?
  741. Elf Ate All
  742.         3d internet
  743.         no more websites
  744.         just virtual stores you walk into
  745.         lololol
  746.         scrap all that hard work
  747. Mr. Sanchez
  748.         haha, I look forward to the day, but that sounds like a year  2000  idea lol
  749. Elf Ate All
  750.         for some simple 3d program that reads in 3d data
  751.         we could make that happen now
  752.         we can make anything happen now, it's an interesting time
  753.         ANYWAYS DAMN U MANG 3 HOURS OF COOL TALK AND NO CODING DOWN D:
  754. Mr. Sanchez
  755.         yup, standardizing it is the challenge
  756. Elf Ate All
  757. Elf Ate All
  758.         I'm going to die
  759. Mr. Sanchez
  760. Mr. Sanchez
  761.         lol
  762.         yeah, I think I'm going to head of to bed soon >.>

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